Greece Struggles to Return Migrants Under EU-Turkey Deal

[luiz]

Ah, a straw man, how original. I'll address only your continued claims, if you don't mind. As you yourself said 350 is not a monthly sum, certainly not to start with. Secondly, what makes you think training is free? Thirdly, Algeria's and Turkey's emigration have nothing to do with any refugee crisis. Fourthly, Algeria and Turkey are not 'refugee magnets'. Most of Syria's refugees actually are still inside Syria.

Oh, I agree, it's tiring. Perhaps you should try and argue from relevant facts for a change. But then, it's much easier to pretend 'concern' without it, isn't it.

Going on with Mr. Clueless

350 is a monthly sum after an initial period. Before that the monthly sum is 150. Training is indeed provided for free, like German language courses and several others.

Finally, Turkey has an enormous amount of refugees living inside its borders. As I said, that's completely unrelated from Turks acting as economic migrants and going themselves to Europe. Same with Algeria.

So yes, a country can be both a destination for economic migrants and refugees and a source of economic migrants on its own. This is the case with several countries. Note that I never said that Indonesians would be refugees, just like the Moroccans and Pakistanis who are taking the Balkans Route together with refugees but are classical economic migrants.

Learn to read.

 

[El_Machinae]

Germany cannot even run enough Germany language and culture classes for 1/3 of the refugees.
No idea what the success rate is so far, but it will be interesting to see how successful Germany is with assimilation

Luckily, education is an information technology, and therefore can very easily be scaled. But yeah, assimilation pressure IS very ratio-dependent. It's why I think NATO allies should be willing to valve some of that pressure for each other.

The problems are exponential. A 10x higher ratio for a country isn't a mere 10x harder to assimilate. Two countries going to 5x is going to be vastly less painful than forcing one ally to be at 10x and one at 1x

 

[Flying Pig]

Moderator Action: Agent327 and luiz, the bickering and personal insults need to stop, now. If you can't post civilly, do not post at all.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[NovaKart]

Merkel keeps saying she's confident the EU deal will work out but it really seems like they've reached a stalemate with Turkey. Turkey isn't budging over the anti terrorism law and neither is Europe over visa liberalization requirements. Europe needs to try and think of other alternatives.

 

[warpus]

Who is going to accept them?
Good luck establishing their country of origin and convincing it to have them back.

I have no idea how deportation works, if the problem is that no country is willing to accept them, then just stop accepting people without valid ID at your border. Is that not feasible either? I honestly have no idea. I mean, it seems that some people would still fall through the cracks, but if the problem is people without IDs, stop accepting people without IDs.

 

[NovaKart]

Well they sneak into the border. I talked to someone a few weeks ago in Iraq who was deported back here so they are deporting people to safe places, I mean Kurdistan is safe. I've heard they examine people to detect their dialect and ask specific questions so if someone from say Erbil is trying to pass himself off as a native of Mosul or Syria they try to detect that. Still, if someone has no paperwork it may be difficult to do that.

 

[Agent327]

I have no idea how deportation works, if the problem is that no country is willing to accept them, then just stop accepting people without valid ID at your border. Is that not feasible either? I honestly have no idea. I mean, it seems that some people would still fall through the cracks, but if the problem is people without IDs, stop accepting people without IDs.

Refugees sometimes don't have a valid ID. So, according to you, they then should not be accepted. How does not having a valid ID relate to being a refugee exactly? And why should refugees with no valid ID not be accepted? Does it somehow bar them from asking for asylum?

Luckily, education is an information technology, and therefore can very easily be scaled. But yeah, assimilation pressure IS very ratio-dependent. It's why I think NATO allies should be willing to valve some of that pressure for each other.

The problems are exponential. A 10x higher ratio for a country isn't a mere 10x harder to assimilate. Two countries going to 5x is going to be vastly less painful than forcing one ally to be at 10x and one at 1x

You do realize that IT has nothing to do with assimilation processes? Secondly, NATO has agreed to assist in EU border patrolling. I don't quite see how this relates to assimilation processes.

350 is a monthly sum after an initial period.

You just repeated what I said.

Training is indeed provided for free, like German language courses and several others.

I was referring to job training. Perhaps that was not clear. Language courses can often be gotten for free, so that seems rather immaterial.

Finally, Turkey has an enormous amount of refugees living inside its borders. As I said, that's completely unrelated from Turks acting as economic migrants and going themselves to Europe. Same with Algeria.

Unfounded claims repeated. So I'll just repeat what you could have found yourself by googling: the overwhelming majority of Syrian refugees is still inside Syria. Secondly, if it's unrelated, why are you bringing it up in the first place? You said earlier economic migration isn't even bad.

Note that I never said that Indonesians would be refugees, just like the Moroccans and Pakistanis who are taking the Balkans Route together with refugees but are classical economic migrants.

Note that you never mentioned Indonesia before I pointed it out. Moroccans taking the Balkan route? Seriously, they can travel freely to the EU... As can Algerians. This is what happens when you mix up unrelated economic migration with the 'refugee crisis'.

Moderator Action: I can see and I appreciate the effort: this is a vast improvement. Please, however, take note of the amendment I have made in writing your future posts: it's still not quite there.

 

[luiz]

Refugees sometimes don't have a valid ID. So, according to you, they then should not be accepted. How does not having a valid ID relate to being a refugee exactly? And why should refugees with no valid ID not be accepted? Does it somehow bar them from asking for asylum?

If they don't have a valid ID how can they prove their legitimate refugee status? What is stopping a criminal or terrorist from shredding his ID and claiming to be a refugee? Or hordes of economic migrants?

You just repeated what I said.

Indeed, so we are in agreement that the generous conditions offered by Germans to refugees act as a magnet for economic migrants. Well, the Germans certainly seem to think so, which is why they are toughening up those conditions.

I was referring to job training. Perhaps that was not clear. Language courses can often be gotten for free, so that seems rather immaterial.

Job training is also provided for free to refugees, or at least it was before the current wave completely overwhelmed the German ability to offer them to everyone.

Unfounded claims repeated. So I'll just repeat what you could have found yourself by googling: the overwhelming majority of Syrian refugees is still inside Syria. Secondly, if it's unrelated, why are you bringing it up in the first place? You said earlier economic migration isn't even bad.

I think you completely misunderstand what I say. Let me try to be clearer:

1-About Turkey, Algeria and Indonesia, I was just pointing out that a country can attract refugees and migrants and produce migrants at the same time. Nothing more than that.

2- I said it's not bad to be an economic migrant, I.e., these people are not evil or anything for trying to enter richer countries illegally and get a better life. Economic migration itself, for the country receiving the migrants, can be good or bad. It depends on how its managed, if the numbers coming can be easily absorbed, if the migrants are coming from diverse backgrounds or are overwhelmingly from a single background, etc. Basically, the host country can decide whether or not it lets economic migrants in, and which migrants it lets in and under what conditions. So my position is not that there should be zero economic migration, that's ridiculous. My position is that it needs to be managed and selective. Clearly, illimited migration from the Middle East is not in Europe's best interests. That's not to say that all Middle Easterners should be locked out, just that they have to be properly screened.

Note that you never mentioned Indonesia before I pointed it out. Moroccans taking the Balkan route? Seriously, they can travel freely to the EU... As can Algerians. This is what happens when you mix up unrelated economic migration with the 'refugee crisis'.

No, they can't. What are you talking about? Both Moroccans and Algerians need visas to get inside the EU. They can't move freely at all. You really need to inform yourself better. That's why they take the Balkan Route.

And my point is that a huge percentage of the people claiming to be refugees in the Balkan Route are actually economic migrants from the likes of Morocco, Algeria and even Sub-Saharan Africa.

Moderator Action: I can see and I appreciate the effort: this is a vast improvement. Please, however, take note of the amendment I have made in writing your future posts: it's still not quite there.

 

[Yeekim]

I have no idea how deportation works, if the problem is that no country is willing to accept them, then just stop accepting people without valid ID at your border. Is that not feasible either? I honestly have no idea. I mean, it seems that some people would still fall through the cracks, but if the problem is people without IDs, stop accepting people without IDs.

If they don't have a valid ID how can they prove their legitimate refugee status?

If we want to to maintain the the whole concept of "refugee" at all, it is obvious that whether someone is eligible for protection or not can not wholly depend on whether or not they've managed to hang on to their ID. In theory, whatever form of other evidence could be used.

What is stopping a criminal or terrorist from shredding his ID and claiming to be a refugee? Or hordes of economic migrants?

Precisely nothing, which is what makes things difficult.

 

[REDY]

Please Delete - already answered

 

[luiz]

If we want to to maintain the the whole concept of "refugee" at all, it is obvious that whether someone is eligible for protection or not can not wholly depend on whether or not they've managed to hang on to their ID. In theory, whatever form of other evidence could be used.

As I said in some other post, nothing can be taken in absolute. If a person has no ID it's a terrible idea to let him in just because he claims to be a refugee. By all means take him out of harm's way, let him safe in a refugee camp or something, but don't grant him full access until his identity can be established. We know that criminals and terrorists have used the Balkans Route posing as refugees, and the consequences have been tragic. There's no sense in making things easier for them.

Also, there's the very important concept of "reality check". No country or even the whole EU can take all refugees of the world. Not even all refugees who can prove their legitimate status as refugees, let alone those who only offer their words as evidence.

Precisely nothing, which is what makes things difficult.

Yes, and the primary responsibility of a government is keeping its citizens safe.

 

[El_Machinae]

You do realize that IT has nothing to do with assimilation processes? Secondly, NATO has agreed to assist in EU border patrolling. I don't quite see how this relates to assimilation processes.

Apologies if I skipped a step. FF was talking about the inability to provide enough teachers to teach German. Assuming they're going to be tested on competence, and not participation in an approved course, then we can be glad that education itself (not assimilation) is an information technology. It means that it's vastly easier to scale, even if there's a specific bureaucratic snafu preventing a specific type of courses being rolled out at scale.

Assimilation has an information technology component, but it's not going to be all that amazing. I'm not sure watching more seasons of CSI will allow me to blend in Las Vegas more easily.

 

[NovaKart]

When people don't have any form of ID whatsoever it can certainly be a problem and seem suspicious. I mean I can see not having a passport but not having anything? I don't think it's such a big concern that they might be terrorists, I mean it seems like most terrorists so far were not recent arrivals, but there's people who are from safe areas who pretend to be Syrians to get in. I've been told by refugees and people who work with them that people from safe parts of Iraq are pretending to be Syrians to get asylum status.

I was reading an article recently about this guy who had been accepted as a refugee in Sweden who was from Kurdistan and pretending to be from Mosul but he wanted to apply for citizenship and he couldn't get it because they required an Iraqi passport and he couldn't get one with the fake name he had given to Swedish authorities.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Apologies if I skipped a step. FF was talking about the inability to provide enough teachers to teach German. Assuming they're going to be tested on competence, and not participation in an approved course, then we can be glad that education itself (not assimilation) is an information technology. It means that it's vastly easier to scale, even if there's a specific bureaucratic snafu preventing a specific type of courses being rolled out at scale.

Assimilation has an information technology component, but it's not going to be all that amazing. I'm not sure watching more seasons of CSI will allow me to blend in Las Vegas more easily.

The thing is many of these Refugees are illiterate or have very little education. And Germany has only so many resources available for language courses.
Many of the best and capable should have no problem learning German within a year and integrate. For the rest this will not be easy

No citizenship without Learning German, and Working for three years
Learn German or have benefits reduced
Germany can move refugees at will (deport to Greece ?)
Three years visa is pretty generous

Germany set to pass first-ever bill to integrate refugees

Refugees undergoing a three-year trainee program in Germany would automatically be permitted to stay in the country. After finishing their training, their visa would be extended for six months, so they could look for a job. Migrants finding work during this period could stay on for at least two more years.

If an asylum seeker wanted a residence permit, then he or she would have to prove enough knowledge of the German language, and be earning enough money to support themselves.

A refugee with an excellent command of the German language would get a permanent visa within three years. The usual procedure requires an applicant to spend at least five years before applying for a permanent visa.

The new law would also give German states the power to tell refugees where they could live. Lawmakers said this provision would help avoid the concentration of migrants in certain areas.

However, officials could reduce assistance for refugees not wanting to participate in integration programs, such as language courses.

http://www.dw.com/en/germany-set-to-pass-first-ever-bill-to-integrate-refugees/a-19280675

 

[El_Machinae]

I understand that there's a shortage of government sponsored courses. The solution is that there are other ways to learn German. Unless the gov't puts up artificial barriers, concerned people can work to bring those solutions forward.

 

[warpus]

If we want to to maintain the the whole concept of "refugee" at all, it is obvious that whether someone is eligible for protection or not can not wholly depend on whether or not they've managed to hang on to their ID.

As long as the country accepting these people accepts that deporting people will be difficult or impossible, and has made plans to accommodate them indefinitely, then yeah, they should feel free to accept who they want. But if they do that, they don't get to complain later about economic migrants being undeportable because nobody wants them. They took them on without proper identification by choice, and so it becomes their problem.

 

[Yeekim]

Of course, genuine refugees with IDs also remain undeportable according to convention - at least until their country of origin becomes safe for them again.

That is my whole point: once you've accepted someone in, he becomes your problem. And potential extent of that problem shouldn't be downplayed by saying "oh, we'll deport them if they misbehave", since that is more often than not entirely unfeasible.

Edit: things are often complicated by the fact that in practice, the decision of whether or not to "take someone on" involves letting them drown as the other choice.

 

[warpus]

Of course, genuine refugees with IDs also remain undeportable according to convention - at least until their country of origin becomes safe for them again.

Yeah, I know, but the problem is that when you accept someone without proper identification, you have no idea if they're actually from one of those problem areas from which refugees are fleeing, or just economic migrants, or whoever. If all those people are undeportable because they don't have proper ID, I think we seem to agree that the country taking them on has to make up their mind whether they want to hold on to these people indefinitely, and don't get to complain about them after the fact.

 

[FriendlyFire]

So between the stealing, ethnic violence, blockaiding of the port, attacks on women and rioting. How soon before Greece welcoming of refugees turns to inevitable resentment and public opinion will turn ?
Greece should have deported large numbers of immigrants. Now this is going to be a massive problem even with the EU providing funding. Greece is going to pay a steep price for its inactions and failed policy.

Right now Greece should immediately separate all the males from families, women and move them onto a remote island as a prison for the safety of not only Greeks but other refugees.
Then Greece better pray that the Germans come through with a deal with Libyra to accept back refugees.

The EU Has Turned Greece Into a Prison for Refugees

 “In the beginning, when there were maybe 40 of them in the boats, all wet, we helped them. Now they’re too many. They steal chickens. They [pooing] in the fields. They threw stones at a woman.”

 Of the 8,500 women, children, and men who have landed on the islands since the agreement was signed, 400 have been returned so far,

 Some detainees made a hole in the back fence, trampling crops and stealing chickens, eggs, and beans from nearby villages. A sheep was reportedly slaughtered and roasted on a spit. Fights broke out between Afghans and Syrians armed with stones, bottles, and razor blades

 That’s when the atmosphere on Chios definitively changed. As the mayor puts it, “The local society felt suffocated. If you occupy the harbor of an island, you occupy part of the lungs.”

 an Afghan stole her passport, ID card, and phone

 Fights break out regularly in Katsikas, too. The previous night, two men were attacked for allegedly being informers; others broke into the hut and stole 600 euros’ worth of food

“This is not Europe,” they kept saying. “This is not what we thought Europe would be.”

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=...d=cr&ei=eOxIV6zyIcKQmgXMo5N4#q=greece&tbm=nws

 

[Agent327]

Someone migrating looking for a job would be foolish not to have an ID. Secondly, not having a valid ID doesn't make someone 'undeportable'.

The thing is many of these Refugees are illiterate or have very little education.

Do they? And we know this how?

Apologies if I skipped a step. FF was talking about the inability to provide enough teachers to teach German. Assuming they're going to be tested on competence, and not participation in an approved course, then we can be glad that education itself (not assimilation) is an information technology.

You do realize that IT simply means computers? As in, my brother works in IT, but he's most certainly not a teacher.

If they don't have a valid ID how can they prove their legitimate refugee status? What is stopping a criminal or terrorist from shredding his ID and claiming to be a refugee? Or hordes of economic migrants?

Economic migrants need a valid ID or they can't apply in the first place. Criminals or terrorists would be utterly stupid not to have an ID. Assessing legitimate refugee status is a matter for the appropriate authorities.

Indeed, so we are in agreement that the generous conditions offered by Germans to refugees act as a magnet for economic migrants.

No we are not. Straw man.

Job training is also provided for free to refugees, or at least it was before the current wave completely overwhelmed the German ability to offer them to everyone.

That's very generous of Germany. You do realize that this is helpful for assimilation and putting people to work? But I understand you object to generosity vs refugees.

IMy position is that it needs to be managed and selective. Clearly, illimited migration from the Middle East is not in Europe's best interests. That's not to say that all Middle Easterners should be locked out, just that they have to be properly screened.

As they will be. I'm not sure what Algerians and Indonesians have to with anything.

IBoth Moroccans and Algerians need visas to get inside the EU. They can't move freely at all. You really need to inform yourself better. That's why they take the Balkan Route.

No, they really, really don't. In case you didn't know everybody needs a visa entering the EU. (Which is why Turkey wants Turks to be able to travel visum free.)

IAnd my point is that a huge percentage of the people claiming to be refugees in the Balkan Route are actually economic migrants from the likes of Morocco, Algeria and even Sub-Saharan Africa.

I explained Morocco and Algeria above. And again, whether someone is a refugee or an immigrant is up to immigration authorities. Your claim that 'a huge percentage' of refugees are actually economic migrants is about as unfounded as it is irrelevant.