'Ground zero mosque' - Open for business

[emzie]

Islam isn't a race, so it's not racism to discriminate against them.

 

[warpus]

Islam isn't a race, so it's not racism to discriminate against them.

Race is classification of humans into large and distinct populations or groups by factors such as heritable phenotypic characteristics or geographic ancestry, but also often influenced by and correlated with traits such as appearance, culture, ethnicity, and socio-economic status.

Religion isn't on that list, but culture is.. Close enough, I say. Race isn't really a very well defined concept, so..

 

[useless]

Sadly, alot of people associate Muslims with Middle-east Asians, and you could argue that's where racism plays a part.

 

[Cutlass]

Religion isn't on that list, but culture is.. Close enough, I say. Race isn't really a very well defined concept, so..

Then you'd have to go with Arabs, Turks, Persians, Indonesians, and I don't even know how many others. Islam is the dominant religion of many ethnic groups.

 

[warpus]

Then you'd have to go with Arabs, Turks, Persians, Indonesians, and I don't even know how many others. Islam is the dominant religion of many ethnic groups.

True, true.. I don't think it's a stretch to call someone who is bigoted against a religious group a racist, though.

What are they gonna say? "I'm not a racist! I'm a bigot!" Ok, fine, whatever

 

[Arwon]

More religious buildings (anywhere) = bad; more Islamic religious buildings = very bad; more Islamic religious buildings anywhere in the general vicinity of the hole in the ground that used to be the WTC = insanity.

Did they open the gay club next to it? I heard someone was planning to do that, if it wasn't just a rumour.



Riiight... I wonder if a more useful building wouldn't be a better use of the space.

You don't really get New York, do you?

Funnily enough, "we Christians" did that. After the Reconquista, the Spanish reconsecrated one particular mosque as a cathedral and carried on using it, leading to the bizarre fusion of Christian and Islamic religious architecture.

More than one, lots. The most spectacular examples are probably in Cordoba and Seville, but they're everywhere. In addition, plenty of muslim architects built churches in a distinctly Arabic and Islamic style after the return to Christian rule.

 

[GhostWriter16]

True, true.. I don't think it's a stretch to call someone who is bigoted against a religious group a racist, though.

Well, define bigotry. Not supporting this particular culture-center isn't. But even if it were, yeah, its bigotry not racism.

 

[Arwon]

You say that like that makes it okay.

 

[GhostWriter16]

You say that like that makes it okay.

No, I just get annoyed when people say crap that doesn't actually make sense.

And opposing this particular community center isn't necessarily bigotry.

 

[markantony]

So after having a year to cool down, does anybody still think this is a victory mosque, an affront to America, or an insensitive place for Muslims to congregate?

The Mosque was already there, less than four blocks from Ground Zero. In fact the Mosque was there before the WTC was built. The new building that idiots were up in arms about was simply moving the Mosque to a better building.

 

[NickyJ]

You don't really get New York, do you?

A Czech doesn't, but an Australian does?

 

[Arwon]

Hells yeah. It's a vibrant, cosmopolitan, tolerant multicultural society made up of many cultures and many groups of migrants. Pretty easy for an urban Australian to get.

No, I just get annoyed when people say crap that doesn't actually make sense.

And opposing this particular community center isn't necessarily bigotry.

Yeah it is, actually. It only makes sense if you make a fairly bigoted "Islam = terrorism" leap and ignore the existence of Muslim New Yorker Americans who were far more directly affected by 9/11 than any given rural American yokel patriot.

 

[Holycannoli]

Still think it's tacky, but I really don't care anymore.

Same, I don't care anymore. There are way bigger things to worry about in this country now, not least of which (around here) is disaster funding.

This mosque is small potatoes at best, and always was really. They really could have chosen a better spot, but they're lucky the country has so many problems now and does not care.

 

[JollyRoger]

Technically true but there is a mosque in it, so I don't see any real reason to not call it a mosque, nor do I see it as offensive to call it a mosque.

Never forget 9/11 when a mosque was attacked!!!!

http://www.businessinsider.com/there-already-was-a-ground-zero-mosque-2010-9

It turns out there was a Muslim prayer room on the 17th floor of the south tower of the World Trade Center, where Americans and other traveling Muslims prayed every day.

On September 11th, 2001, when a handful of terrorists flew planes into the towers, some of the folks who used the room evacuated in time. Others probably didn't.

In other words, there already was a "ground zero mosque"--used by Muslim Americans who were murdered just like everyone else.

So isn't it time we stopped framing this discussion as "us versus them"?

 

[naterator]

Ever heard of a thing we call Google? I heard you can do searches on it. Link for those who don't use it.

Ever heard of backing up your own arguments and not expecting people to google every little thing you say? You wanna prove a point? Prove it. Don't expect me to do the legwork for you.

Look, here's another poll that shows a majority favoring the center. Guess my meaningless numbers cancel yours out.

 

[squadbroken]

I wonder how they would feel if a Christian terrorist killed three thousand people somewhere in the Middle East

We called that "Operation Iraqi Freedom".

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

This thread is echoing the same bollocks in the other one.

Osama meant to do a couple of things. 1. Bring America financially to it's knees. 2. Cause a lot of dead infidels. 3. Instigate as much hatred between Muslims and Infidels. The wars he caused spent America into the red figures, a lot of Americans went into 2 wars, a lot of them didn't come back.

The question is now: Are we going to grant him victory to 3. as well posthumously?

Are the people who work, visit and built this 2 Blocks Away From Ground Zero Community Centre Including Mosque not New Yorkers and/or Americans?

Or are they Muslims first, New Yorkers/Americans second?

It's a hideous building.

It sure is.

This mosque is small potatoes at best, and always was really.

It sure is and was.

Nice to agree with you fellers in a thread like this

They really could have chosen a better spot

I think they couldn't have chosen a better spot really. The only way you can accuse them of choosing a poor spot if you suspect them to be supportive of the 9/11 attacks. Otherwise you just want to protect those who believe this. I noticed last time around everyone was so offended on behalf of other people, while not actually being offended themselves. It boils down to:

1. You believe they did support the 9/11 attacks and are glad it happened. That is the only reason you could find such a building offensive.

2. You believe they did not support the 9/11 attacks, and are sad it happened. Then there is no reason to object to the location. Except maybe to want to not hurt the feelings of those who are so short--sighted to see the Muslims as enemy which is conceding victory to the terrorists on point #3.

 

[NovaKart]

I don't think it would be a very comfortable place to visit since there's probably a lot of security.

About the Cordoba Mosque, Church - it's actually pretty common for conquerers to change a religious place. The Turks did that in Anatolia and in many places in the former Ottoman Empire, like with the Aya Sofia.

 

[Formaldehyde]

70% of America, huh? That's a hell of a number to throw out there with no corroboration. I don't remember that question on the census. Or did we vote on it? Or are you referencing some random poll you saw some time? Because I'm betting that number, which has appeared about 1000 times on this page, is meaningless.

That figure comes from places like this that I linked earlier:

Opponents of the planned Islamic community center and mosque near Ground Zero in lower Manhattan have public opinion firmly in their corner. According to a new TIME poll, 61% of respondents oppose the construction of the Park51/Cordoba House project, compared with 26% who support it. More than 70% concur with the premise that proceeding with the plan would be an insult to the victims of the attacks on the World Trade Center. Opposition to the project appears to derive largely from the conviction that the proposed site of the project — just two blocks from Ground Zero, in a building that formerly housed a Burlington Coat Factory outlet — is so close to "hallowed ground," as President Obama put it.

But as I pointed out earlier, the same poll also reported this:

Yet the survey also revealed that many Americans harbor lingering animosity toward Muslims. Twenty-eight percent of voters do not believe Muslims should be eligible to sit on the U.S. Supreme Court. Nearly one-third of the country thinks adherents of Islam should be barred from running for President — a slightly higher percentage than the 24% who mistakenly believe the current occupant of the Oval Office is himself a Muslim. In all, just 47% of respondents believe Obama is a Christian; 24% declined to respond to the question or said they were unsure, and 5% believe he is neither Christian nor Muslim.

Once again, if the opinion is based on fear, lack of facts, and propagandizing how relevant is it compared to direct violation of the First Amendment of the Constitution.

"A bill of rights...serves to secure the minority against the usurpation and tyranny of the majority.” Alexis de Tocqueville

Furthermore, a majority of people who live in Manhattan see absolutely nothing wrong with it, even though some of the family members of victims feel insulted. This project was approved with no fuss until the right-wing media started making a big deal out of it, while claiming that that particular Imam had not been demonstrative enough in opposing terrorism even though he clearly had. As Jon Stewart pointed out, you could make the same sort of claims about Fox News being a "Terrorist Communication Center".

Interestingly, Stewart unearthed a clip to start the segment of Laura Ingraham essentially endorsing the project on Fox News back in December, before the politicization really heated up. Then he used Fox Business anchor Eric Bolling‘s recent appearance on Fox & Friends to make two points. First, as Bolling talked about the emotion behind 9/11, Stewart said:

You feel there should not be a Mosque down there, at least symbolically it doesn’t well with you, and I can accept that. I can accept that argument, I can respect that argument. Here’s where you lose me.

In “a dangerous game of guilt by association you could play with almost anybody,” Bolling laid out how the Imam behind the Mosque may possibly be raising money or potentially supporting issues that could loosely be tied to terrorism. So with that in mind, Stewart laid out how News Corp.’s and Rupert Murdoch‘s Saudi connections could make the same point. “Is Fox News a terrorist command center?” asked Stewart, rhetorically. “I don’t know! I’m just saying you could draw this up.”

 

[markantony]

The Mosque is ALREADY there.