Habemus Papam (We have a Pope)

[Keirador]

Don't be narrow-minded, classical hero. Yes, adultery is sex outside of marriage, but it's not the only kind. Premarital sex is neither adultery nor a part of marriage.

 

[GenMarshall]

Does not the Bible outrightly condemn Adultery? If you think not, then read the ten commandent again. Read Leviticus 18 and 22 again it you are unsure. Read Romans 1 again and see that you will say that. Do you know what the punishment for Adultery was in the Old Testament? If you find the answers to all that, then come back and see what the Bible says about that issue. If you don't agree with me, are you saying that Adultery is not sex outside of marriage?

Was the punishment, death by stoning? I am not sure

 

[classical_hero]

Actually, I can't have children naturally.... Adoption is the only option for me.

That's a shame. So can you use IVF? By that, it is possible medically for you to do that, or is that not medically possible also. Notice that I am just speaking from a medical POV, not a religious POV.

 

[classical_hero]

Was the punishment, death by stoning? I am not sure

The General Jewish way of killing people was by stonin. These verse are found in Leviticus Chapter 20.

2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.
14 And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

There are two methods of death for a person found guilty of any sins. One was bieng burnt, the other was stoning. The Jews prefered to stone people to death for those sins.

 

[classical_hero]

Don't be narrow-minded, classical hero. Yes, adultery is sex outside of marriage, but it's not the only kind. Premarital sex is neither adultery nor a part of marriage.

So does that mean premarital sex is a separate genre. Where did you get that from? From where I sit, sex before, during, and after marriage, is all sex outside of marriage.

 

[Plotinus]

I meant base, carnal pleasure; as that is what Comrade Davo complains that the Catholic Church doesn't allow. I said "base, carnal pleasure" at one point, so I saw no need to continue to repeat that mantra; as pedants are fairly easy to ignore, but I will give the benefit of the doubt to so keen an intellect as yours, Plotinus, and assume you did not view that particular post.

Then I apologise! As I didn't see that post.

Does not the Bible outrightly condemn Adultery?

Of course it does. But as keirador rightly points out, the fact that it condemns *some* kinds of sex outside marriage does not entail that it condemns *all* kinds of sex outside marriage.

If you don't agree with me, are you saying that Adultery is not sex outside of marriage?

Obviously not. But you appear to be denying that there is any kind of sex outside marriage, which is obviously odd. Your argument is like saying that Exodus 35:2 forbids doing work on the Sabbath, so therefore the Bible forbids all work.

 

[Plotinus]

So does that mean premarital sex is a separate genre. Where did you get that from? From where I sit, sex before, during, and after marriage, is all sex outside of marriage.

These are different species, as it were, within the genus of "sex outside marriage". Showing verses that condemn one species does not entail that the others are also condemned. You don't have to have an advanced degree in logic or something to see that.

 

[Keirador]

Plotinus! You've quoted me as saying dogmatic and untoward things! EEP!

 

[Plotinus]

Plotinus! You've quoted me as saying dogmatic and untoward things! EEP!

Eep indeed! Many apologies. You know, I'm not very good at this cuttin' and pastin' milarky - never had that in the good old days of ZX81s. Post edited to reflect reality.

 

[Chieftess]

That's a shame. So can you use IVF? By that, it is possible medically for you to do that, or is that not medically possible also. Notice that I am just speaking from a medical POV, not a religious POV.

Nope. It's a rare medical condition/organs not forming correctly.

 

[Keirador]

So does that mean premarital sex is a separate genre. Where did you get that from? From where I sit, sex before, during, and after marriage, is all sex outside of marriage.

Sex during marriage is sex outside of marriage? Get a new seat. Extramarital sex during marriage is, Biblically, a stoning offense. Premarital sex is NOT adultery, no matter how you try to lump all sex outside of marriage into one category.

 

[GenMarshall]

Sex during marriage is sex outside of marriage? Get a new seat. Extramarital sex during marriage is, Biblically, a stoning offense.

I would defenately side with the church in regards to sex outside of marrage is a grave offense and that the adulterer and the adulterie should be punished. I am refering not to premarital sex which is a totaly different catigory.

 

[classical_hero]

Of course it does. But as keirador rightly points out, the fact that it condemns *some* kinds of sex outside marriage does not entail that it condemns *all* kinds of sex outside marriage.

Does it seem odd to you that God condemns every other form of sex outside of marriage, but then one is left out. It is just like saying certain form of murder are wrong but shooting someone is okay. If all form of murder are wrong, so are all forms of Sexual Immorality are wrong, including premarital sex. The fact that you could not define sexual immorality means you have no idea what you are talking about.

Obviously not. But you appear to be denying that there is any kind of sex outside marriage, which is obviously odd. Your argument is like saying that Exodus 35:2 forbids doing work on the Sabbath, so therefore the Bible forbids all work.

I am not denying that sex outside of marriage happens, I am just saying that it is wrong.

We can actually find verses that say people must work, whereas you cannot find passage that will ever support your thesis that premarital sex is right. I must ask you this question. What is moral in the realms of sexuality?

 

[classical_hero]

Sex during marriage is sex outside of marriage? Get a new seat. Extramarital sex during marriage is, Biblically, a stoning offense. Premarital sex is NOT adultery, no matter how you try to lump all sex outside of marriage into one category.

I did not quite word what I was aying properly. My point is that if you have sex before your are married, during you marriage but with someone who is not you married to you and after you are married.

 

[Keirador]

That last phrase was a sentence fragment. If you have sex before your are married, during you marriage but with someone who is not you married to you and after you are married. . . then what? Then it's all sex outside of marriage? Well of course. But it's not all adultery , which was, I believe, the point.

 

[Plotinus]

Does it seem odd to you that God condemns every other form of sex outside of marriage, but then one is left out.

Does it perhaps occur to you that other forms of sex outside marriage are not condemned because the Biblical authors did not think of them, or did not consider them wrong?

It is just like saying certain form of murder are wrong but shooting someone is okay.

No it's not, because all kinds of murder *are* wrong. You are making a ridiculous analogy by comparing sex to murder!

If all form of murder are wrong, so are all forms of Sexual Immorality are wrong, including premarital sex.

Again, as usual, you are importing your own views into the discussion! Yes, if premarital sex is a kind of sexual immorality, then it is wrong. But the antecedent has yet to be proved.

The fact that you could not define sexual immorality means you have no idea what you are talking about.

Our discussion in the other thread was not about the nature of sexual immorality - it was about the nature of sexual immorality according to the Bible. My own views of sexual immorality are completely irrelevant to that discussion, as are your own. In any case, I did provide a criterion for determining whether behaviour is immoral - whether it hurts people or not. I'd say that is a more reasonable criterion for distinguishing between moral and immoral sexual behaviour than your bizarre and inflexible - and completely unbiblical - insistence that the only distinction worth considering in sexual behaviour is whether it is within marriage or not. Your view would make a man raping his wife moral, while two people who have been engaged for five years sleeping together would be immoral. Do you really think that marital rape is moral? Apparently so, and yet once again you lecture me on not knowing what I'm talking about...

But there's no point re-opening this discussion in this thread as it is wildly off-topic and pointless anyway. You can ask me these questions again in the thread about the Bible and sex if you like.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I am not denying that sex outside of marriage happens, I am just saying that it is wrong. What is moral in the realms of sexuality?

Well, apparently, according to Gen. 19, incest is permitted as long as the kids do the instigating.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I'm also a young man with hormones and have a girlfriend for 2 years now, and both of us don't think sex is a basic requirement.

Wow I am impressed!

Comrade Davo, I intend no offense, but one must assume you have some maturing to do yet. Pleasure is not interchangeable with happiness. The fulfillment of the yearnings of a testosterone-soaked brain will not bring lasting happiness; and history abounds with examples that show this to be true. Your point of "well an orgasm makes me happy!" is contemptible; yes, sex is fun, but, as a person with a two-year girlfriend, wouldn't you agree that sex within the confines of a loving relationship is better than random copulation with sluts and the inebriated? This, good sir, is dead in-line with the findings and teachings of the Catholic Church. Happiness is about personal acceptance and social relationships; not how much serotonin you can possibly get released into your blood. Hedonism has a social stigma for a reason.

Of course I have some maturing to do, i'm only 19! (20 in a couple of weeks mind)

And yes, whilst I do agree with the idea that sex in a loving relationship is generally more desirable, I have no problem with safe consential sex outside those cicumstances, and what I am saying is that having sex is somewhat of a requirement in deciding whether to pursue a relationship.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Is this a coincidence ?

 

[GenMarshall]

I thought Senator Joseph Leberman has a resembelence to Palpatine?