(hard?) deity Winnie

[sampsa]

Cities with high food surplus should get them, slow cities are better off without them, naturally, but for me it is not just hammer reduction the forges give but also the burst mode they allow you if you have any of the happy metals. Even if you start with 2 extra pop by not building the forge, you end up in a problem very quickly as you need to grow into unhappiness if you are whipping hard (as you should). Needing to grow to +2 or +3 unhappy people slows down growth and whipping additionaly. And then you face a bit extra resistance and lose more units, which slows you even further. There is a negative snowball at play here. Attacking or reinforcing 1-2T slower can totally change the course of the war.

Interesting comments. If I understand correctly, we agree that without -metals forges are not good. There are a few things I don't understand. Why do you say "2 extra pop by not building the forge"? We know it's a 4-pop whip. You can 2-pop whip HAs (intending to upgrade) and let HR take care of happiness. Cold fact is what I said earlier - you need to whip 16 pop for a forge to break even -wise. We definitely agree with the snowball effect, but I think it's to the opposite direction.

One explanation is that you didn't have upgrades in mind, rather go with no GMs in which case forges make much more sense.

 

[shakabrade]

Interesting comments. If I understand correctly, we agree that without -metals forges are not good. There are a few things I don't understand. Why do you say "2 extra pop by not building the forge"? We know it's a 4-pop whip. You can 2-pop whip HAs (intending to upgrade) and let HR take care of happiness. Cold fact is what I said earlier - you need to whip 16 pop for a forge to break even -wise. We definitely agree with the snowball effect, but I think it's to the opposite direction.

One explanation is that you didn't have upgrades in mind, rather go with no GMs in which case forges make much more sense.

Yup, no happy, no good. Unless IND. You can play around the need for Forges, I also like to use GM and upgrade (WEs more favored than HAs). But you need a nice map/traits to make all that work.

I say 2 pop more without the forge because you can't usually grow 4 pop more due to happy cap, each level costing more food and because you will have some OF put into forge. So usually it will not result in 4 more pop, plus it is a good chance that your forge is in the Mono city or Bureau capital, reducing the pop lost to whipping. I did no statistics on this but my feeling is that Forge costs around 2 pop and some lost commerce due to not working as many tiles. Maybe because I do not consider building it if it is a worse deal. Survivorship bias.

Regarding the 16 pop to break even, it is a worst case scenario, because of opportunities to reduce the Forge cost. Extra AP hammers can also play a role. If one is going for Forges, one should also play around them. Not just build them because it is a thing to do. So, what ideally happens is that you either have forges and love them, or don't have them because they have no business case. But I also feel that forges are situational and not as good as most of the people think.

 

[sampsa]

Regarding the 16 pop to break even, it is a worst case scenario, because of opportunities to reduce the Forge cost.

Yes, 16 pop is absolutely worst case scenario. But even if we make it say 12 or so... There just isn't much time to pay back from whipping forges to whipping units. Also, the golden age requires pop. Maybe I'm doing something wrong (or just differently), but for me forges don't seem to do it, again assuming cuir stomp strategy (and non-IND obviously).

If one is going for Forges, one should also play around them.

But I also feel that forges are situational and not as good as most of the people think.

Fully agree.