Hate is the new sex

[innonimatu]

Right, I see what you mean now. There will be consequences later on in the lives of those growing um in this environment. Though I dare not guess which.

And just as the first generation of these permanently monitored and disciplined children grow into adulthood in the US they throw a massive fit, behave thouroughly age-inappropriately and display an unprecedented incompetence in basic skills in rhetoric, conflict resolution, pluralism etc. feeding right into the next moral panic.

You're sure it's only the US? I think I saw that along Spain's coast in a recent trip and they were british, swedes, etc. I got the impression that many of the people I saw led a live so repressed that when they went on vacation they behaved... well, like imbeciles.

 

[Tahuti]

You're sure it's only the US? I think I saw that along Spain's coast in a recent trip and they were british, swedes, etc. I got the impression that many of the people I saw led a live so repressed that when they went on vacation they behaved... well, like imbeciles.

Dutch people in Spain are like the country's national shame. Though you may be on to something: Dutch tourists in Spain (you can just as well replace Dutch with Swedish or British) all have stuff to worry about like study and employment. You are practically required to have a car for stable middle class employment in the Netherlands, yet owning one is bureaucratic hellhole too. Dutch social life is as socially rigid as being drafted into the IDF in Israel and if you fail to fit in, you might as well just go crazy sane. And all middle class children are placed in kindergartens, away from their parents who can now work. College education is about 'finding a job', even at academia.

And I seriously begin to doubt whether euthanasia legalisation was really about self-determination. It seems more like a lethal escape valve from capitalism for the elderly and the sick, created by politicians with a vested interest in capitalism. Since WWII, Dutch society places a higher premium on work than on the welfare of its subjects, but I'm afraid that's a global, endemic problem.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

A woman who enjoys sex may be labeled one of many different words, very few of which are positive.

Spread the good words, please!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Spread the good words, please!

What words?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

What words?

Any positive words and ways of thinking about women who enjoy sex .

There's no subtext here. It's just that a woman who was taught to deny her natural desires and who built her character upon that is a real issue. So, those archaic stereotypes harm both sexes. And females are usually more open to listen to other females when it comes to this topic.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Any positive words and ways of thinking about women who enjoy sex .

There's no subtext here. It's just that a woman who was taught to deny her natural desires and who built her character upon that is a real issue. So, those archaic stereotypes harm both sexes. And females are usually more open to listen to other females when it comes to this topic.

Nope.

While it's true that some women might be more receptive to such a conversation with other women, I have no intention of preaching to any of the female members here about "denying their natural desires."

How would you know what any specific woman desires (in either a sexual or non-sexual context)? It's presumptuous, condescending, and downright sexist to carry on about "all women want this/that/whatever."

That's just not true.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Nope.

While it's true that some women might be more receptive to such a conversation with other women, I have no intention of preaching to any of the female members here about "denying their natural desires."

How would you know what any specific woman desires (in either a sexual or non-sexual context)? It's presumptuous, condescending, and downright sexist to carry on about "all women want this/that/whatever."

That's just not true.

Now that sounds more like your real stance. Haven't you thought that you might be prejudiced yourself and might be spreading the negative ideas about females, and even push some of them further into sexual rigidity?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Now that sounds more like your real stance. Haven't you thought that you might be prejudiced yourself and might be spreading the negative ideas about females, and even push some of them further into sexual rigidity?

All of my stances are my "real" stance, unless I've indicated in some way that I'm being sarcastic or am joking.

Kindly stop with the mansplaining, 'k? Thanks.

The women of CFC are all quite capable of speaking for themselves. They don't need me to do it, and I suspect you'd get a unique perspective from every single one of us.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

All of my stances are my "real" stance, unless I've indicated in some way that I'm being sarcastic or am joking.

Kindly stop with the mansplaining, 'k? Thanks.

The women of CFC are all quite capable of speaking for themselves. They don't need me to do it, and I suspect you'd get a unique perspective from every single one of us.

I am not trying to persuade you to agitate CFC women to have more of hetero coituses and better openly on streets like in Crank . Don't perceive some random people so primitively, even when they are white straight males from autocratic countries .

I've just tried to give you a little kudos for a thing you said, but as I now see it was just a figure of speech for you and you're not really sharing it.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I am not trying to persuade you to agitate CFC women to have more of hetero coituses and better openly on streets like in Crank . Don't perceive some random people so primitively, even when they are white straight males from autocratic countries .

I've just tried to give you a little kudos for a thing you said, but as I now see it was just a figure of speech for you and you're not really sharing it.

At this point, I have no idea what you're rambling on about. To me it sounds like you want a list of the good names women get called if they enjoy sex.

As I said, I don't speak for the other women here. I speak for myself. If they want to address this, they're welcome to do so. But for me, you're making demands I'm not going to accommodate. I do share a lot of my personal life on this forum, but some things I don't share.

If you're so insistent on knowing these things, why don't you ask the guys here who are married, dating, or in some other committed relationship?

 

[Ryika]

Meh. A woman who enjoys sex doesn't get called names for it, how would she? Most people will never know that she does. (And who the hell does not enjoy sex anyway?)

What you actually mean is a not a woman who "enjoys sex", but a woman who goes around and either has sex with tons of men and/or women, or openly displays her sexuality. The most obvious thing she's going to be called is a slut.

And yeah, there's a pretty obvious double standard there. Of course, men and women both take part in slut-shaming in similar number. Apparently many people of both genders still haven't learned to just people do whatever they want to do.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Meh. A woman who enjoys sex doesn't get called names for it, how would she? Most people will never know that she does. (And who the hell does not enjoy sex anyway?)

Some people don't. And we were talking about positive labels. Kindly don't presume to tell me what I actually mean. I know what I mean, and it wasn't what you claim I mean.

 

[Traitorfish]

The flaw in this analogy is that bigotry is actually a bad thing. That's not a taboo or a prejudice, it's a statement of fact. Bigotry is a bad thing.

But a great number of people don't really believe that, at a bone-deep level. They understand that it's shameful and embarrassing, yes. But they don't believe that it's actually wrong, in any moral sense. A lot of people don't really believe that anything is wrong, they only understand that some things will attract praise and other things will attract scorn. And such people comprise a majority of our political, economic and cultural leadership.

And that's where your problem is.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

At this point, I have no idea what you're rambling on about. To me it sounds like you want a list of the good names women get called if they enjoy sex.

As I said, I don't speak for the other women here. I speak for myself. If they want to address this, they're welcome to do so. But for me, you're making demands I'm not going to accommodate. I do share a lot of my personal life on this forum, but some things I don't share.

If you're so insistent on knowing these things, why don't you ask the guys here who are married, dating, or in some other committed relationship?

I am not insisting on anything and not asking of anything.

We just had a situation like this:

Male #1: Blah-blah-blah. <Statement X>.
Male #2: Hey, man, nice thought, keep telling that!
Male #1: What are you insinuating here?! No!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I am not insisting on anything and not asking of anything.

We just had a situation like this:

Male #1: Blah-blah-blah. <Statement X>.
Male #2: Hey, man, nice thought, keep telling that!
Male #1: What are you insinuating here?! No!

Okay, at this point I can't tell if we're having an ESL issue here, or if you're just determined to push the conversation in your direction without actually trying to understand what I'm saying.

Considering what's going on in RL now (a male tenant in my building tried to push his way into my apartment a few weeks ago; now we've found out I'm not the first one, and the cops and lawyers are involved)... this is NOT a good time to push my conversation.

 

[Yeekim]

The flaw in this analogy is that bigotry is actually a bad thing. That's not a taboo or a prejudice, it's a statement of fact. Bigotry is a bad thing.

Sounds a lot like something a Victorian person would say about sex.
Anyway, terms like "bigotry" and "bad" are horribly subjective and as such have little to do with facts.

 

[Borachio]

Is bigotry subjective?

A bigot is someone who's intolerant of people whose opinions run contrary to their own.

I wouldn't think you'd have much trouble determining if someone's a bigot or not.

Or maybe you would. I dunno. I'm not a bigot, am I?

And maybe you aren't either.

 

[Traitorfish]

Sounds a lot like something a Victorian person would say about sex.

And they'd have been wrong, as they were about great majority of things. "The sky is blue" and "the sky is green" are both very similar claims, but one is a fact and the other is nonsense. Form isn't substance.

Anyway, terms like "bigotry" and "bad" are horribly subjective and as such have little to do with facts.

That isn't true, though, is the thing. Bigotry isn't really very ambiguous, as a concept, and it is by definition a bad thing. Identifying bigotry may be tricky, sure, but so is, say, distinguishing different species of tapeworm, and only a bloody fool would say that had nothing to do with fact, that it was all a matter of opinion. The world is messy, but that doesn't give us permission to abandon moral reasoning.

 

[innonimatu]

The flaw in this analogy is that bigotry is actually a bad thing. That's not a taboo or a prejudice, it's a statement of fact. Bigotry is a bad thing.

But a great number of people don't really believe that, at a bone-deep level. They understand that it's shameful and embarrassing, yes. But they don't believe that it's actually wrong, in any moral sense. A lot of people don't really believe that anything is wrong, they only understand that some things will attract praise and other things will attract scorn. And such people comprise a majority of our political, economic and cultural leadership.

And that's where your problem is.

No, the problem is that you, and so many other people, misunderstand the problem.

What is "bigotry"? My dictionary says "intolerance, prejudice". Can someone actually live without these? I am certainly a "bigot" in a number of things: I have decided upon some beliefs and it would take a lot, some of those life-changing events (that's kind of by definition, btw), for me to change my mind on those. I am intolerant of a number of things.
I'm also often prejudiced because I simply do not have the time or the means to make an informed decision when I need to make one, so I default to what seemed to work in the past for me, or to what someone I trusted told me.
Perhaps some monks somewhere could pretend to live without prejudice and intolerance. Of course they have done so on the backs of peasant serfs... Perhaps some were indeed personally saintly, and so were some hermits of the desert, but they managed it by: 1) renouncing the wider world and the social relations and entanglements (an arguably selfish decision...), and 2) having others with no such saintly behavior protect them and provide for them.

So, are intolerance and prejudice bad things? I believe that they are as necessary, actually more necessary, as sex for every person who lives in any somewhat complex (which is to say, populated) society. And humans being social animals, that means all of us here talking about this. Intolerance and prejudice exist because they are tools that help us cope with a complex (and too ofter quick-changing and unforgiving) world. How do I quickly decide whether to trust a stranger? How do I choose to approve or disapprove a behavior or action by another person that may affect me? Lacking the means to analyze the issue at leisure (we are not gentlemen, are we? that is a luxury few can afford), we decide based on prejudices. And having either embraced a decision copied from others (prejudiced though it may be) or analyzed the issue at leisure (if we are gentlemen with time to spare, or if the issue is important enough for us to stop and investigate), having made that decision, we then defend and try to enforce it: we become intolerant on that issue. And there are plenty of issues on which people are intolerant, society would collapse if they were to constantly go back to questioning them.

So, having thought about these issues (hey, I do have some time to spare!) my present conclusion is that intolerance and prejudice are an adaption to bad circumstances: the pressures of everyday life (which in part are a function of the economic systems people live under), the complexity of situations that we are forced to deal with (mostly this is the price we pay for out technology and social contracts, and that price tends to get heavier). But they are not in themselves bad things. They just can be can be badly applied.

What unfortunately happens is that bigotry gets redefined as "the beliefs of those I disagree with". They are bigots because they hold "immoral" or "irrational" (in my view of the world) beliefs. But calling people bigots changes absolutely nothing. It may have once been a pressure tactic (shame the enemy, undermine their beliefs by convincing them they are being "bad") but by now that has lost all effectiveness. Call a person a bigot for a while, without addressing that person's actual problems, and such a person will cease to be shamed or embarrassed, and instead take the adjective bigot as a badge of honor and fight back against you. That is happening now, can't you see it?

 

[caketastydelish]

I would agree females get slut shamed more than guys. On the other hand, female virginity is much more respected than male virginity.