Hobby Lobby Triumphs over its minion workers

[Formaldehyde]

The point is that the religious opinions of those living in the distant past shouldn't have any major influence in a supposedly secular country, much less have enough weight to tip the scales in Supreme Court decisions.

 

[Farm Boy]

I agree with you on the way I wish the ruling would have gone Formy, but hiya. I live here, now, and I hold those religious views. To the best of my knowledge there are no temporal anomalies in this sector at the moment.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Do you really think your personal opinions in regard to abortion, or those of anybody else, should deprive others of their own personal freedom to live as they wish in a supposedly secular society?

Abortions should be covered by all healthcare insurance, much less IUDs and morning after pills.

 

[Farm Boy]

You read the first sentence in my post, yes? It was right there. Being all, "Hello there Formy, I'm the first sentence."

More the contention was the last statement. "Much less IUDs and morning after pills." Abortions need not be surgical to be abortions. But then again, I usually have to remind myself that you often advocate killing the poor as positive development in the fight against crime. Which, I suppose, does make a bit of sense depending on what one's priorities are.

 

[KMRblue1027]

Not to sit here defending Hobby Lobby, because I'm not. But most birth control is still covered by Hobby Lobby, certainly everything from your point number 2 is. Also I see these figures of hundreds or thousands of dollars thrown around regularly but it doesn't make sense to me. My girlfriend gets hers for free from the county health department, and it's not like we live in some Liberal utopia area.
Again I haven't read the word for word decision as given by the court, but as I understand it it is incredibly narrow and likely won't significantly effect women negatively. Also it seems to have very little potentially for creating a 'slippery slope' hence I don't quite understand why so many people are crying wolf.
tl;dr: The decision is unfortunate, but not as unreasonable as people are saying. There is so much hyperbole and outright lies on my Facebook feed right now it's giving me a headache.

And I'll say one more time, we deserve this for putting healthcare in the hands of employers. Sing;e payer was, and is the only way to go.

Fair enough, I guess I was a bit reactionary but the argument that people (especially woman) should simply "avoid sex" absolutely sets me off in these kinds of debates, and of course single payer is the way to go but thank the Dem controlled congress in 2009 for getting bullied away from that option by the Republicans.

 

[warpus]

I'm of the opinion that if you are unable to perform a job due to religious objections or otherwise, you should not have signed up for that job to begin with, assuming that the thing you cannot do is a significant enough portion of the job you signed up to do.

So either do your job, or go find another one.

 

[nc-1701]

Fair enough, I guess I was a bit reactionary but the argument that people (especially woman) should simply "avoid sex" absolutely sets me off in these kinds of debates, and of course single payer is the way to go but thank the Dem controlled congress in 2009 for getting bullied away from that option by the Republicans.

Of course since it's a stupid argument. But it isn't one made by the Court, or even (to my knowledge) by any person of significance on the right. It's occasionally made by some junior state senator from southwest hickville or Rush Limbaugh, but not by anyone who matters. Which really makes it a colossal overused strawman, which is what gives me a headache.
I tend to think Liberal positions are strong enough to stand on their own without this embellishment.

 

[Farm Boy]

Avoiding sex being such a boogieman. "Oh noes! The abstinent person passeth. Fear the night. It might be contagious." Certainly need to go after those evil souls even as we cover the vast majority of available contraceptive techniques.

 

[onejayhawk]

Do you really think your personal opinions in regard to abortion, or those of anybody else, should deprive others of their own personal freedom to live as they wish in a supposedly secular society?

Abortions should be covered by all healthcare insurance, much less IUDs and morning after pills.

Why? It's elective. Why should anyone else be required to pay for it?

J

 

[Commodore]

Why? It's elective. Why should anyone else be required to pay for it?

J

The same could be said for getting pregnant. Should employers be allowed to deny coverage for pregnancies because "it's elective"?

 

[warpus]

Why? It's elective. Why should anyone else be required to pay for it?

J

Because easy access to abortion drives down childcare costs that society has to pay in the form of welfare and other social support for single (or not so single) mothers.

It's an investment, it means you have to pay less later.

You might as well ask "Why should anyone else be required to pay for the healthcare of others?", or "Why should anyone else be required to pay for the infrastructure that others use?" and so on.

 

[Farm Boy]

Because easy access to abortion drives down childcare costs that society has to pay in the form of welfare and other social support for single (or not so single) mothers.

It's an investment, it means you have to pay less later.

When did you take up the xenophobic anti-immigration "social financial costs" logic? The numbers are probably wrong here too, as it is there. I'm legit surprised.

 

[warpus]

Anti-immigration what? Where did you pull that out of?

 

[Traitorfish]

Yeah, I don't get that. Immigration is more likely to be defended on a basis of social costs, because healthy young immigrants help to balance out the financial burden of sick old locals.

 

[Farm Boy]

Exactly? Education and social welfare investments in children pay off financially over the course. They pay off when immigrants come to work, they pay off when child rearing is the subject too, even when the demographics are of "less socially desirable" children.

 

[Traitorfish]

Now you're just putting words in Warpus' mouth.

 

[Farm Boy]

Erm. K?

Because easy access to abortion drives down childcare costs that society has to pay in the form of welfare and other social support for single (or not so single) mothers.

It's an investment, it means you have to pay less later.

Yes, abortion may drive down childcare costs. Anything that decreases birth rates does. But if you want to ascribe the situation to saving on costs so that you society can profit financially - kids are a good investment, not a bad one. Children of unplanned pregnancies and single mothers are still good investments over time too. They don't magically become a blood-sucking tics for lacking the normative family and planning structure that generally renders social aid less needed during rearing.

 

[Traitorfish]

Warpus didn't say anything of that sort. He only said that low-waged single mothers are more likely to depend on public assistance than mothers with partners and/or better-paying jobs. He didn't make any moral judgements, and while his financial logic is as you say less than exhaustive, it's not actually incorrect, just limited in scope.

 

[Tahuti]

Do you really think your personal opinions in regard to abortion, or those of anybody else, should deprive others of their own personal freedom to live as they wish in a supposedly secular society?

Fair enough

Abortions should be covered by all healthcare insurance, much less IUDs and morning after pills.

Oh, so you are okay with a society promoting such instead!

Also goes a long way of understaining anti-abortionist viewpoints, since most of them do not view as a matter of 'pinion.

 

[Traitorfish]

Given that Hobby Lobby has claimed the right to refuse to pay for contraceptions which are in its opinion equivalent to abortion even when the contraception in questions possess no abortifacient function, which amounts to no less a claim their opinions take priority over any material reality, I don't know if that's entirely true. All that can be said is that they're too far down the rabbit hole to realise it.