I advised you to not comment further because I so do hate watching people make utter fools of them selves. You see, the social lessons of a message board are not unlike those of a high school, except they are dolled out far more ruthlessly.
Yeah, who am I to disagree with the good and mighty Patroklos. I should just crawl back under whatever stone I crawled from before I make more of a fool of myself....how dare I disagree with you
So, what social experience is a home schooler missing out on? Anorexia? Teen pregnancy? Exposure to drugs? Being ridiculed mercilessly for any number of physical shortcomings? Struggling to perform academically while all the "cool" social norms advocate otherwise? Depression? Suicide? Drinking? Smoking? Is getting a swirly some sort of indispensible right of passage no prospective citizen can do without? I bet all those fat kids thank god everyday they were made to feel like a non human everyday because lord knows they would never have functioned as a normal adult without that.
Please, do tell us what any of these things that are so rampant in our public schools actually provide for a developing citizen?
And then tell us why Jonny prom king quarterback apparently doesn't require any of those harsh lessons above. Are those social lessons only for the fatties/goths/nerds/disabled/ugly/athletically disenclined people to learn?
It really shows your bias when you only dish out the negative effects of social interaction with different kinds of people (and use ridiculous hyperboles on top of that, at least I hope it's hyperboles, for if the state of the US public schools is really even closely to what you describe, you guys are doomed...)
As I said before, I went to public schools as well, and I was never athletically inclinde nor dashingly handsome...and somehow I survived the terrible nightmare that is highschool.
Why would people in my sports team share any other interest besides baseball? Why would the people in Boy Scouts share any other interest besides camping? Why would any of the people at work share any other interest besides making money? Why would the neighborhood kids share any of my interests. And more importanty, why would any of the people in these groups necessarily share any interests with each other.
but that's the point, everyone in these clubs shares at least one interest, which makes it a lot easier to relate to each other.
Face it, the idea that you have to go to school to develop socially is patently false. Students would actually be served better if social interaction was reduced; all it does is diminish its mission effectiveness.
I didn't say it's absolutely necessary, but it's a nice benefit that's not to be disregarded easily. The point of school is not just academic education, but also social education.
Actually homeschooling might have a advantage when it comes to children recieving social interaction. The advantage is that a parent can more easily seperate large scale social interaction from the students schooling. As a result the student can receive the benefits of both education and social interaction without education and social interaction interfering with each other.
The only flaw with this idea is that like many of homeschooling's other flaws is that it is harder for a homeschooled student to recieve good education and social interaction than it is for a public schooled student. But not impossible. And the end result of homeschooling for some students might be greater than the end result of public schooling. But homeschooling is definatly harder for a parent to get right. So I don't recommed homeschooling for everyone. But for some students it may provide better results.
On another note, i've noticed that homeschoolers have more difficulty being able to stand and move in proper lines than public schoolers do. Even if they are not kept socially isolated.
And on another note, interestingly enough the public school system did not seem to mind my mom's decision to homeschool me. My 5th grade public school teacher even suggested that I be homeschooled due to my learning difficulties and the public school that I was originally supposed to attend 6th grade at was glad that my mom canceled my attendence to the school as it reduced the school's overcrowding problem.
Yeah, who am I to disagree with the good and mighty Patroklos. I should just crawl back under whatever stone I crawled from before I make more of a fool of myself....how dare I disagree with you
You actually haven't provided anything that qualfies as disagreement, don't flater yourself.
It really shows your bias when you only dish out the negative effects of social interaction with different kinds of people (and use ridiculous hyperboles on top of that, at least I hope it's hyperboles, for if the state of the US public schools is really even closely to what you describe, you guys are doomed...)
As I said before, I went to public schools as well, and I was never athletically inclinde nor dashingly handsome...and somehow I survived the terrible nightmare that is highschool.
High school is like this. Are you honestly oblivious to all the problems today's adolecents are having? Sure you can blame that on the parents, but a good part of that is the idea that all they have to do is drop there kids of at school and all that stuff will be taken care of. Hell, you are ADVOCATING leaving their social indoctrination up to their immature peer groups! And you wonder why the priorities of children are out of sync?
but that's the point, everyone in these clubs shares at least one interest, which makes it a lot easier to relate to each other.
Is us both being on a baseball team supposed to magically sooth the Liberal/Conservative divide? Pro-life/Pro-choice? Are the social experiances of school negated because everyone is, well, at school? There is nothing unique about the school social enviroment that fosters development faster than other group activities.
I didn't say it's absolutely necessary, but it's a nice benefit that's not to be disregarded easily. The point of school is not just academic education, but also social education.
No, the point of school is academic education. Period. If you get some social experiance from it great, but it should not be fostered at the expense of academics. Socialize on your own time.
The only flaw with this idea is that like many of homeschooling's other flaws is that it is harder for a homeschooled student to recieve good education and social interaction than it is for a public schooled student.
High school is like this. Are you honestly oblivious to all the problems today's adolecents are having? Sure you can blame that on the parents, but a good part of that is the idea that all they have to do is drop there kids of at school and all that stuff will be taken care of. Hell, you are ADVOCATING leaving their social indoctrination up to their immature peer groups! And you wonder why the priorities of children are out of sync?
I don't think I'm 'out-of-sync' at all. Granted, I base my experience on interaction with swiss teenagers, as well as having been one myself at some point. but honestly, I cannot believe that matters are that much worse in the US than they are here....but once again you're using ridiculous hyperboles 'social indoctrination' what the hell? I don't deny that bad stuff happens at schools (any school) but what you're suggesting surely is ridiculous.
Is us both being on a baseball team supposed to magically sooth the Liberal/Conservative divide? Pro-life/Pro-choice? Are the social experiances of school negated because everyone is, well, at school? There is nothing unique about the school social enviroment that fosters development faster than other group activities.
ah, I forgot that your world is hopelessly bipolar....everybody can be sequestered into clear labels...what I was suggesting is that people who share a similar interest can often overcome their other differences (for a time, anyway). But once you enter the workforce, you'll have to be able to deal with people who have nothing in common with you (be it collegues, clients, superiors, etc). school is one place where you can acquire these skills. sure, parents can help with this to some point, but they can't replace the real thing.
No, the point of school is academic education. Period. If you get some social experiance from it great, but it should not be fostered at the expense of academics. Socialize on your own time.
Originally Posted By KaeptnOvi: ah, I forgot that your world is hopelessly bipolar....everybody can be sequestered into clear labels...what I was suggesting is that people who share a similar interest can often overcome their other differences (for a time, anyway). But once you enter the workforce, you'll have to be able to deal with people who have nothing in common with you (be it collegues, clients, superiors, etc). school is one place where you can acquire these skills. sure, parents can help with this to some point, but they can't replace the real thing.
People in the workforce do have something in common. Its called working at their job. People who work at the same job share a interest in what their job does. Clients are also interested in what the job does.
The only flaw with this idea is that like many of homeschooling's other flaws is that it is harder for a homeschooled student to recieve good education
not really. that's an indirect benefit of education that's just as important (if not more so) than the stuff you actually learn. that's nice that you can get it from other places, but its not a requirement of homestay. if you're staying at home all day, you won't know how to interact with people on a normal basis.
Originally Posted By Slobadog:
The only flaw with this idea is that like many of homeschooling's other flaws is that it is harder for a homeschooled student to recieve good education
I'm sorry. What I meant is that a parent who is homeschooling their children for the first time will have difficulty figuring out how to match the benefits that a public school can provide. So in that sense it would be more difficult for a homeschooled student to get a good education. I should have explained that better in my previous post.
I have not taken the time to read every post on the thread, but I feel compelled to respond. Let me explain my situation, and perhaps you'll understand why. So you aren't forced to read it, it's under "spoiler" tags, but I think it explains a lot:
Spoiler:
I come from a small town in New England with a public school system that is consistently ranked among the best in the country. My parents are both medical doctors, and I was raised in a secular Jewish household. I was enrolled in private school until the 6th grade, but from 7th through 12th grade, I was homeschooled. My family decided to try homeschooling for a number of reasons, and I won't go into all the details now, but let it suffice to say that there were no religious, or other strictly ideological, reasons for the decision: for the most part, it was related to having more freedom to work at my own pace and have more time to study the topics that interested me. Over the course of seven years, the nature of my homeschooling experience changed and improved, as we began to understand better ways to approach education.
My parents, who at first shouldered the majority of instruction, gradually began to diversify my curriculum to include distance learning courses offered by major universities, classes at local colleges, and a lot of self-guided, self-motivated study-- the latter usually involved their procurement of texts and materials, followed by rough scheduling guidelines for me to follow. Tutors were hired to teach languages: French, Russian, and Hebrew were all covered at some point, though my fluency in any of them is currently somewhat dubious .
This is not to downplay the herculean efforts of my parents, who studied the local high school's curricula, researched endlessly, and re-learned themselves many subjects they had not studied in many years. Furthermore, as doctors, they had enough background in the basic sciences to be my primary instructors in those fields. Essentially, it became a full-time job between the two of them, and I have no doubt a similar task would have overwhelmed lesser mortals. If you couldn't already tell, I am in awe of my parents, but feel I am justified in that reverence.
Another major factor in my homeschooling was international travel, but I don't feel like I need to expand too greatly on that area right now. Let it be enough to say that travel was an integral part of the curriculum, and served to broaden my international cultural understanding immeasurably.
As for the results, I hope I can give good account of myself without crossing the line into self-aggrandizement. I made sure to take many SAT II achievement tests along with the SAT I; I only took a single AP exam, in French. I did not receive grades from my parents (that would have been slightly silly), but my grades from distance learning courses and local colleges speak loudly enough for themselves. I feel I've tooted my own horn loud quite enough already, but this brief curriculum vitae would be incomplete without mentioning that I graduated cum laude from Princeton this past year with a BA in History, and I'm currently planning on following in dear old mum and dad's footsteps by going to medical school.
Now, that covers my background and should give you a good idea where I'm coming from when I state my position on this topic.
Homeschooling should not be banned, but it must be regulated far better than it currently is. As someone who has seen the "movement" (and I use those quotation marks very consciously) from the inside, I know how easy it is get approval for homeschooling. In my state, it involves two things: the first is a cursory yearly meeting with the superintendent of schools to make sure that roughly everything required is being covered; the second is a laughable single-page form that asks the parents to place a check mark next to the topics and indicate the number of days per year they plan to teach (my parents always wrote 365)-- Science is marked "Optional."
This, in my humble opinion, is a travesty. I was fortunate enough to have parents who were intelligent, motivated, and well-off enough to homeschool me as successfully as I believe they did (if you have doubts about this and have not read the brief biographical dissertation above, I suggest you do so). However, I realize it would be just as easy for parents to royally bungle their child's education. And the extent to which the system currently allows parents to critically mismanage their children's schooling is breathtaking. Now, the reach of the government's mandate into education is something that I will leave to be discussed by brighter political minds than my own, but I feel it would be largely unjust for the government to ban homeschooling, when I have seen first hand how successful it can be. Again, I'll let others debate the government's role in mandating what children need to learn. Still, in my opinion, it needs to be more than just a series of checkmarks next to a short list of subjects.
And don't even get me started on "Science (Optional)."
Lastly, it's important to realize that homeschooling is not for everyone. Before embarking on that venture, both parents and children need to do some good, honest self-reflection and figure out whether homeschooling would be a good fit for them. Can parents manage to build a solid curriculum? Do they have the time to devote to teaching? Can the child motivate him or herself to learn on his or her own? These kinds of question need to be asked, and maybe these are the kinds of questions that need to be brought to the attention of anyone who wants to take their children out of school. I realize that my situation is a rare one, and I understand that many people see homeschooling as nothing more than an opportunity for wing-nuts to indoctrinate their offspring with whatever loony brainwashing they can muster. And sometimes, that's what it is. But let's not let those bad apples spoil the bunch.
Heck, I want to homeschool my own kids when I have them. It worked out pretty well for me, so why not?
(Also, if you have any specific questions about homeschooling in general or my specific experience, I'd be happy to take a stab at answering them ).
However, I realize it would be just as easy for parents to royally bungle their child's education. And the extent to which the system currently allows parents to critically mismanage their children's schooling is breathtaking.
There is no evidence of that in statistics. In fact, public schooling fails FAR more often per capita.
Also, I think you are under-informed about getting certified to homeschool. It's different for every state and you likely are not aware of everything your parents had to do.
According to the statute, a home education program is defined as sequentially progressive instruction of a student directed by his or her parent or guardian in order to satisfy the requirements of ss. 1002.41; 1003.01(4), and ss. 1003.21(1). Parents are responsible for directing their children's education, not necessarily for providing every element. Many resources exist that can help you and are discussed in the Support Groups, Evaluators and Tutors, and Curriculum sections of this site.
Families who choose to establish a home education program as per the statutes have several procedures to comply with. They must:
Send a Notice of Intent to the superintendent of schools for the district they live in;
Maintain a portfolio of records which includes a log made contemporaneously with instruction and samples of the student's work;
Provide for an annual evaluation, which must be filed with the school district;
Allow the superintendent (or his.her designee) to review their records with 15 days written notice;
Send a Notice of Termination when they stop homeschooling or move to another school district.
Anyway, I think it is obvious to everyone now that this:
If you deny people the ability to homeschool their children unless they A) are sufficiently qualfied, B) agree to teach a state-designed curriculum that is at least comparable to that taught in public schools, and C) are not motivated by the desire to indoctrinate their children, at least 90% of homeschooling will disappear overnight.
Also, I think you are under-informed about getting certified to homeschool. It's different for every state and you likely are not aware of everything your parents had to do.
Each state has their own specifications.
That's a fair critique, although I am very much aware of what my parents were required to do. Most of my derisiveness for the scant requirements comes directly from what they said themselves when explaining the process to me. We of course followed all the requirements of ss. 1002.41; 1003.01(4), and ss. 1003.21(1) (wouldn't want to be breaking the law, now would we?), but most of those are things I glossed over in mentioning the yearly meeting with the superintendent.
As far as other states, I was only basing my opinion on my experience, and I'm glad to hear that other states are more rigorous than mine.
Also, this discussion seems to have taken a turn toward the social aspects of homeschooling, which I did not address. In the interest of not blathering too long, I still won't address them, unless someone has a specific question.
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