Homosexuality and Natural Selection

[SeleucusNicator]

If Perfection were to disapear, I don't know what would happen to this board. He is often the only source of fact and reason in science threads.

Keep up the good work.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

If they don't pass on the gay gene, then the resulting population will be entirely free of the gene.

You assume all natural things are genetic. Studies have shown that left-handedness has nothing to do with genetics, but with how the brain develops and is only slightly more likely in families with left-handedness already. There are many, many other functions that are natural that are not related to genetics, but can occur in any family. Similar assertions are being made for homosexuality. Hence, there is no gene to be passed and it can happen in any family.

 

[andrewgprv]

The attitude I described is definitely part of the gay community. Do a google search on "Bisexual homosexual community" and the entire first few pages is made up on links discussing discrimination against bisexuals from people who identify themselves as homosexuals.

I agree it is part of the gay community but I think it is a minority of the gay community that feel this way. I do not know the minds of every gay person but from my experience most gays I have known do not prescribe to this view. There are alot of Nazi and KKK supporters in the USA but this does not mean that this respresents the USA population at large. I myself believe in the Kinsey model where everyone is bisexual to a degree.

 

[andrewgprv]

@ Uiler

Now as I said I believe that everyone is bi to a degree. But for classification purposes I would call anyone 0- low 2 straight, high 2's - low 4's bi, and high 4- 6 gay using the Kinsey scale below.

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

Now for those who are gay 4-6 what very often happens is that the first step in coming out of the closet is by saying you are Bi. I myself did this, although I would say I am a mid 5 it was much easier admiting to myself I was bi before admitting to myself I was gay. And besides there had been some women that had turned me on. I have seen several friends go through the same process. So what often happens is when someone says they are Bi, many gays are naturally skeptical thinking that they could just not be ready to admit they are gay.

 

[Ovulator]

I only skimmed this thread...but in this same argument you could say that infertility, mental retardation are a choice because they don't (or rarely) reproduce and since should be wiped out.

Not everything is genetic, like the left hand thing.

 

[Goober]

@ Uiler

Now as I said I believe that everyone is bi to a degree. But for classification purposes I would call anyone 0- low 2 straight, high 2's - low 4's bi, and high 4- 6 gay using the Kinsey scale below.

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

Now for those who are gay 4-6 what very often happens is that the first step in coming out of the closet is by saying you are Bi. I myself did this, although I would say I am a mid 5 it was much easier admiting to myself I was bi before admitting to myself I was gay. And besides there had been some women that had turned me on. I have seen several friends go through the same process. So what often happens is when someone says they are Bi, many gays are naturally skeptical thinking that they could just not be ready to admit they are gay.

Ya, I took this route to. I came out as Bisexual to my parents (3 or so months ago), and to myself, sooner. I know I am Gay now, but I don't see the point in letting the parents know - just yet anyway.

But ya, you are right, the Bisexual-Gay approach is much easier then just coming out as Gay. It is a bit more long-winded, but is just generally easier.

I would classify myself as a 5 on that scale.

 

[cgannon64]

If homosexuality is genetic, which I'm pretty sure its not, it could have survived this long because very little gay men in the past didn't have wives and children.

Still, I'm pretty sure it has to do with hormones received as a fetus.

 

[Cuivienen]

I would be inclined to agree, except that there does seem to be a familial tendency towrads homosexuality as well. Of course, this may be because hormone levels in the women are inherited, making their sons more likely to be gay. It would be interesting to see if there is trend towards gay men's sisters' sons being gay.

 

[GenMarshall]

@ Uiler

Now as I said I believe that everyone is bi to a degree. But for classification purposes I would call anyone 0- low 2 straight, high 2's - low 4's bi, and high 4- 6 gay using the Kinsey scale below.

0- Exclusively heterosexual with no homosexual
1- Predominantly heterosexual, only incidentally homosexual
2- Predominantly heterosexual, but more than incidentally homosexual
3- Equally heterosexual and homosexual
4- Predominantly homosexual, but more than incidentally heterosexual
5- Predominantly homosexual, only incidentally heterosexual
6- Exclusively homosexual

Now for those who are gay 4-6 what very often happens is that the first step in coming out of the closet is by saying you are Bi. I myself did this, although I would say I am a mid 5 it was much easier admiting to myself I was bi before admitting to myself I was gay. And besides there had been some women that had turned me on. I have seen several friends go through the same process. So what often happens is when someone says they are Bi, many gays are naturally skeptical thinking that they could just not be ready to admit they are gay.

I myself rate myself in the mid 3 on that scale (I dont know if the Kinsey Scale goes into the hundreth decimal place). Though I still consider myself as a closet Bi in reallife.

 

[amadeus]

I say that the straight women have been procreating with the gay men so future generations of women don't all have to suffer with bad colored drapes.

 

[Perfection]

If Perfection were to disapear, I don't know what would happen to this board. He is often the only source of fact and reason in science threads.

Keep up the good work.

Oh, don't worry, I'm not going anywhere, today it's the science threads, tommorow it will be the religion threads, and the next day politics. This will continue until I am everyone's sole source of information.

Then I can make you all believe whatever I want.


MUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Alvaro da Luna]

Interestingly enough, I once heard about a study of English and German males that were in the womb during the city bombings of WWII. It seemed that a disproportianate number of males born in that era seem to have developed homosexual traits. So this suggests the problem is certainly more than pure genetic.

 

[Mise]

Ok, there is definately a problem here.

If homosexuals aren't threatened by natural selection, then does that mean that natural selection is being threatened by homosexuality? Apparently, several genes are required in order to create the conditions in the womb for homosexuality to develop in the child. Presumably, these genes have been selected for because they are more beneficial than homosexuality is detrimental. Does that mean there comes a point when these genes are selected in sufficient quantities such that the benefit of their selection equals the cost of the resulting homosexuality? If that is true, it has dire implications for natural selection; there is a limit to how far humans can develop genetically.

 

[classical_hero]

I hate all the "homosexuality is a choice" jargon. I hate all the "homosexuality is a mental condition" jargon.

I mean, to me, different people are attracted to different things; lord knows how many conversations I've had to endure about which men and women aren't attractive. Sexuality cannot be narrowly defined to a single thing in any person, so why would it be true for homosexuals?

I still don't get what the big deal is, anyways.

You will be surprised by how much our lives are actually lived by the choices that we make. We make so many choices that it is often confused with who we are. But once we have made that choice, then it is what we are.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Natural selection can't naturally happen with gays, thus it is naturally wrong.

 

[JohnRM]

Hmm, I am going to totally reject the "womb environment theory" (since no one cared to support that claim with facts and sources) and continue to believe that homosexuality is a choice.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

Hmm, I am going to totally reject the "womb environment theory" (since no one cared to support that claim with facts and sources) and continue to believe that homosexuality is a choice.

For which you also have no facts and sources in support. There's a name for such a person...

 

[andrewgprv]

Hmm, I am going to totally reject the "womb environment theory" (since no one cared to support that claim with facts and sources) and continue to believe that homosexuality is a choice.

google it, I don't want to spend my time researching for you. I've already done it enough on this forum. The information is out there all you have to do is look.

 

[Seanirl]

(remember, the trait is nonexistant outside of peoples of European descent and at max 25% of Caucasians have blue eyes).

Strange, seems to me that most people I see seem to have blue eyes. At least half.

My eyes are blue with some brown around the pupil... I guess I got that from my mother, she has crazy looking eyes, sort of like blue with loads of weird specks of brown...

My sister and mother have/had blue eyes and neither are European or of European descent. If you go to Afghanistan or northern Pakistan, the Pathan people sometimes have blue eyes or blond hair. But I'm being picky.

And remember that Afghan girl with the green eyes? Some Arabs then have green eyes... which you wouldn't assume would be the case as such. In fact, why are arabs less black than Africans? It's just as hot there, or even more isn't it?

Actually, I've a question or a couple of questions for people that may know about genetics or... something to that effect...

People began in Africa and were as such, black. People migrated from Africa to all over the world and now we have people that are white, sometimes with blue eyes and blonde hair too. Very different from how things began.

My question is, does anyone know how long that took to occur? the change in colour of skin and eyes and hair? and what exactly caused it? the temperature I guess but how?

And you know how they say that blondes are dying out? How can that be really... I mean, if blonde hair "evolved" out before then how can it just dissappear?

There's a lot I'd like to know about genetics and the evolution of people...

 

[Seanirl]

I myself believe in the Kinsey model where everyone is bisexual to a degree.

Probably more like masturbation. You're not sexually attracted to your hand but you do it anyway to orgasm and whatnot. What I'm saying is... maybe a lot of people could have sex with the same sex (sounded weird...) without being attracted to them AT ALL but just doing it for the same reason as masturbation.

Like how they say men have sex with each other in prison but don't consider themselves homosexual or bisexual as such.