House Approves Flag-Burning Amendment

[Raijer]

The American flag stands for the foundations of our nation. The great men who brought our country together and won our independence. People today are burning flags because they dissaprove of our current government on domestic and foreign issues. But the flag's meaning shoudn't change from generation to generation. It still represents freedom and democracy 200 years after our independence. People who are burning the flag are burning the ideals of American democracy. If they hate those ideals so much, they should realize that they should be living in a country with different ideals.

You totally confuse the issue. Of course, you are correct in saying that "The American flag stands for the foundations of our nation," and that "It still represents freedom and democracy 200 years after our independence." The foundation of the United States of America is FREEDOM - just as you say. The flag symbolizes this, it represents the very real FREEDOM that America is founded on. Where you confuse the issue is your desire to destroy actual FREEDOM in order to protect the symbol. What is MOST important? The real thing - FREEDOM, or the the thing that represents it? I say unequivically it is the FREEDOM ITSELF that needs protecting, because this is the very foundation that America was founded on. America was NOT founded on a mere representation of FREEDOM, but the REAL THING. This amendment wants to destroy the real thing to protect the symbol. And I say, if you're in favor of destoying the foundation of America - FREEDOM in order to protect the thing that only symbolizes it, it is YOU who should be living in a country with different ideals.

 

[greekguy]

It's just a piece of colored cloth. The American nation is great enough in itself without needing a symbol to represent it. People burning the flag are not burning away freedoms, they are burning a piece of cloth. Wether or not they believe they are trashing "democracy and freedom" in this manner is irrelevant. As I've stated before, the fact that this is to pass the Legislature hits much more at freedom and democracy that whatever act of burning a silly flag would. As Uiler noted, the whole thing could backfire and you could have people burning the flag in public just because it would be forbidden.

But why do people burn the flags in the first place? Why can't they just hold a rally or write a letter to their congressman or something? Burning the American flag is such an extreme. It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

 

[Bootstoots]

The American flag stands for the foundations of our nation. The great men who brought our country together and won our independence. People today are burning flags because they dissaprove of our current government on domestic and foreign issues. But the flag's meaning shoudn't change from generation to generation. It still represents freedom and democracy 200 years after our independence. People who are burning the flag are burning the ideals of American democracy. If they hate those ideals so much, they should realize that they should be living in a country with different ideals.

Is not one of the ideals of American democracy the fact that you can express your disapproval of your government? Our country stands for freedom and democracy, and that is precisely why you can burn a symbol of it. If this amendment passes, I will burn a flag not because I disapprove of those ideals, but on the contrary because one of those freedoms will have been destroyed by people who claim they're protecting them.

 

[greekguy]

You totally confuse the issue. Of course, you are correct in saying that "The American flag stands for the foundations of our nation," and that "It still represents freedom and democracy 200 years after our independence." The foundation of the United States of America is FREEDOM - just as you say. The flag symbolizes this, it represents the very real FREEDOM that America is founded on. Where you confuse the issue is your desire to destroy actual FREEDOM in order to protect the symbol. What is MOST important? The real thing - FREEDOM, or the the thing that represents it? I say unequivically it is the FREEDOM ITSELF that needs protecting, because this is the very foundation that America was founded on. America was NOT founded on a mere representation of FREEDOM, but the REAL THING. This amendment wants to destroy the real thing to protect the symbol. And I say, if you're in favor of destoying the foundation of America - FREEDOM in order to protect the thing that only symbolizes it, it is YOU who should be living in a country with different ideals.

For the record this is the only freedom currently covered in the 1st ammendment that has come up for debate recently, that I believe should be revoked. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I just think this goes too far.

 

[Bootstoots]

But why do people burn the flags in the first place? Why can't they just hold a rally or write a letter to their congressman or something? Burning the American flag is such an extreme. It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

It expresses far more contempt for freedom and democracy to outlaw a type of free expression (namely, that you hate your government) than to exercise it.

 

[nonconformist]

But why do people burn the flags in the first place? Why can't they just hold a rally or write a letter to their congressman or something? Burning the American flag is such an extreme. It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

Your coutnry was founded in 1776. since then's a lot changed.
If Washington, and his band of fellow dandies knew about things like the PATRIOT act, they'd be spinning in their graves so fast, you could drill a tunnel to China with them.
People emigrated to the US because it was the land of opportunity, and hope. Is it still? Maybe. But then again, you'd have to ask people burning the flags.
The flag burners are as American as you. Just that maybe they feel the flag is drenched in bloood, and filth.

 

[Raijer]

But why do people burn the flags in the first place? Why can't they just hold a rally or write a letter to their congressman or something? Burning the American flag is such an extreme. It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

I see your point here. I personally find flag burning disgusting. But that's the price I pay for living in a free society. I'm going to have to be exposed to many ideas, and witness and see many thing that I don't agree with. But you know what? It's worth it to live in this great country! People have the right to say what they want, when they want, and that my friend is a beautiful, wonderful thing, and it is what makes America great. Yeah, whenever I see a flag burner, I think " Go live somewhere else." But that sentiment goes double for anyone who would actually propose to revoke my precious American freedom so that they wouldn't ever have to witness ideas they found disagreeable.

 

[Raijer]

For the record this is the only freedom currently covered in the 1st ammendment that has come up for debate recently, that I believe should be revoked. I believe in freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I just think this goes too far.

Sorry, but this is not true at all. Freeedom of speech has been under attack on many sides, but this is a topic for another thread. Any cursory study of American history shows that the founding fathers were very concerned with the ability to speak out against the government. They were very careful to make sure that citizens had the right to speak out against the governement - a right they themselves did not have until the American Revoultion was fought and won. Flag burning may be extreme, but nevertheless should be protected as free speech. The moment you start killing freedoms just because they may go against your personal sensibilities, is the moment the slippery slope towards NO freedom at all has started its Un-American trip downwards.

 

[greekguy]

I see your point here. I personally find flag burning disgusting. But that's the price I pay for living in a free society. I'm going to have to be exposed to many ideas, and witness and see many thing that I don't agree with. But you know what? It's worth it to live in this great country! People have the right to say what they want, when they want, and that my friend is a beautiful, wonderful thing, and it is what makes America great. Yeah, whenever I see a flag burner, I think " Go live somewhere else." But that sentiment goes double for anyone who would actually propose to revoke my precious American freedom so that they wouldn't ever have to witness ideas they found disagreeable.

There are far more civilzed ways to disagree with the American government. Burning the flag is not only crossing that line, but it is extremely disrespectful to fellow Americans who died defending their freedom. Soldiers in wars like the Civil War, would recieve the Medal of Honor for saving the American flag from falling into the hands of the Confederates. It was a symbol of pride for America and what they were fighting for. Why is the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima so memorable? Because it showed everything America stood for when those men planting that flag on that mountain. It showed America's quality to do what's right when faced with forces who represent all that is wrong. Even if you disagree with the current administration, that doesn't mean you should disrespect past generations of people.

 

[greekguy]

Sorry, but this is not true at all. Freeedom of speech has been under attack on many sides, but this is a topic for another thread. Any cursory study of American history shows that the founding fathers were very concerned with the ability to speak out against the government. They were very careful to make sure that citizens had the right to speak out against the governement - a right they themselves did not have until the American Revoultion was fought and won. Flag burning may be extreme, but nevertheless should be protected as free speech. The moment you start killing freedoms just because they may go against your personal sensibilities, is the moment the slippery slope towards NO freedom at all has started its Un-American trip downwards.

I'm not saying this is the only time freedom of speech has been under attack recently. Just that this is the only freedom that I believe should be revoked, that has been debated recently.

 

[Bigfoot]

I haven't read the entire thread, so somebody may have already made this point. Passing the amendment in question would overturn a great deal of judicial precedent about what constitutes protected speech under the 1st Amendment. What next, prosecutions for making 'Unamerican' comments? I am not fond of seeing people burning the flag, but all of this 'super-patriot' posturing by the Congress turns my stomach.

 

[Raijer]

There are far more civilzed ways to disagree with the American government. Burning the flag is not only crossing that line, but it is extremely disrespectful to fellow Americans who died defending their freedom. Soldiers in wars like the Civil War, would recieve the Medal of Honor for saving the American flag from falling into the hands of the Confederates. It was a symbol of pride for America and what they were fighting for. Why is the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima so memorable? Because it showed everything America stood for when those men planting that flag on that mountain. It showed America's quality to do what's right when faced with forces who represent all that is wrong. Even if you disagree with the current administration, that doesn't mean you should disrespect past generations of people.

I served my country for five years in the military. I volunteered to die in defense of my country, and the Constitution which made it possible. These soldiers, who you rightly praise, were not fighting to protect a mere representation of what "America stood for," but the real thing: FREEDOM. If you kill freedom, you kill the REAL THING for which every single one of these soldiers fought and died. Kill REAL FREEDOM, and all these soldiers will have died in vain. No burning flag could ever show these past generations more disrespect than that.

 

[Aphex_Twin]

But why do people burn the flags in the first place? Why can't they just hold a rally or write a letter to their congressman or something? Burning the American flag is such an extreme. It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

And it illustrates that by curbing what is essentially in the realm of freedom of expression? Flag burning does not hurt people, you can hardly say it's damaging to the environment, well, you can have some objections from your local firemen, but that's just it. If there is anything that expresses the "spirit of a nation" it is the principles on which it is built. If you need a flag to remind you of what the "spirit" of America is then it means you are not seing it around yourself. I would worry it I were you...

 

[Warman17]

I served my country for five years in the military. I volunteered to die in defense of my country, and the Constitution which made it possible. These soldiers, who you rightly praise, were not fighting to protect a mere representation of what "America stood for," but the real thing: FREEDOM. If you kill freedom, you kill the REAL THING for which every single one of these soldiers fought and died. Kill REAL FREEDOM, and all these soldiers will have died in vain. No burning flag could ever show these past generations more disrespect than that.

My thoughts exactally.

 

[IglooDame]

There are far more civilzed ways to disagree with the American government. Burning the flag is not only crossing that line, but it is extremely disrespectful to fellow Americans who died defending their freedom. Soldiers in wars like the Civil War, would recieve the Medal of Honor for saving the American flag from falling into the hands of the Confederates. It was a symbol of pride for America and what they were fighting for. Why is the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima so memorable? Because it showed everything America stood for when those men planting that flag on that mountain. It showed America's quality to do what's right when faced with forces who represent all that is wrong. Even if you disagree with the current administration, that doesn't mean you should disrespect past generations of people.

It is indeed a symbol, and by giving that symbol legal protections at the expense of free speech, the symbology changes a bit - instead of the symbol of freedom, it becomes a symbol of limiting freedom to pacify those that worship symbols.

 

[Raijer]

It is more than a piece of cloth. It helps illustrate the spirit of freedom and democracy in America. When you are burning that "piece of cloth" you are basically saying "I hate this freedom and democracy and I hate America." If they hate this country that much, then why are they still living here?

So your solution is to actually snuff out REAL freedom to protect the the thing that "illustrates" it. Nothing says "I hate freedom" more than actually proposing to destroy it. And once you've detroyed freedom, what does the flag "illustrate" now? Why, that would be NOTHING, wouldn't it?

 

[GrandAdmiral]

There are far more civilzed ways to disagree with the American government. Burning the flag is not only crossing that line, but it is extremely disrespectful to fellow Americans who died defending their freedom. Soldiers in wars like the Civil War, would recieve the Medal of Honor for saving the American flag from falling into the hands of the Confederates. It was a symbol of pride for America and what they were fighting for. Why is the picture of the flag raising on Iwo Jima so memorable? Because it showed everything America stood for when those men planting that flag on that mountain. It showed America's quality to do what's right when faced with forces who represent all that is wrong. Even if you disagree with the current administration, that doesn't mean you should disrespect past generations of people.

Protecting real freedom is more important then protecting a symbol of freedom that doesn't actually have freedom to back it up. Freedom of speech minus the possibility of any disrespectfull act means absolutely nothing. One thing that separated us from the ones they call dictators is our right to disrespect our government in our own way when we see fit. I find it strange that people complain about communists when they support communist tactics that fit their agenda. All you seem to care about is fighting for a symbol yet you show little concern for what that symbol represents in everyday life.

 

[Yom]

Don't get too far ahead of yourself; it's not done yet. The House has passed this twice before in fairly recent years and both times it was shot down by the Senate. It's getting a relatively larger amount of press this particular time than the last (the first time the House tried it, it got tons of press, though) because the Senate is believed to be much closer to actually passing it as well. But it's far from a sure thing. And even if the Senate were to pass it, it would still have to be approved by 2/3 of the States, which I don't see happening for the same reasons as I doubt a 'no homosexual marriage' amendment would pass anytime soon: both 'liberal' and 'libertarian' states would be odds-on to say 'No.'

Renata

Actually, 3/4ths or more of the State legislatures have to approve it, which is 38 or more.

 

[Mark1031]

This fall's into the category of fiddling while Rome burns. The Republicans do this grandstanding every year or so it has no realistic chance of going anywhere.

 

[Mark1031]

People who are burning the flag are burning the ideals of American democracy. If they hate those ideals so much, they should realize that they should be living in a country with different ideals.

The freedom to hate America is the most important freedom we have. Because as soon as you say you can no longer hate America you'll very quickly find that you can no longer say you hate the government or the government's policies, which is what people mean anyway when they burn the flag. In fact we are today at a point where criticizing the administration policy is equated with hating America and supporting its enemies. It is a very effective means of political control that has been used by scum throughout history. Once you can no longer hate the leader or their policies you have no political freedom. It is an extremely important concept to remember!