How Charitable are US Churches?

Not on the same level, no.
But if you want to put a very fine point on it the same arguments still apply.
See, the food drives i know, do nothing else. They hand out food. They don't promote any organisation as a byproduct. They don't even have a name (sure, technically they have, but they are known as "that local food drive").
Of course that's a horrible waste - an exellent advertisemment opportunity evaporates into thin air.
Actual people get all the credit. Sad...

You are right, we do have hats and sometimes vests to advertise our membership in the Lions Club. And we don't only do food drives. Our local club is involved in a number of activities, from donating funds directly in the form of money for fresh water wells in Africa to scholarships to the local community college to blunting the costs of seeing eye dogs for the non-wealthy, we provide labor in collecting used eyeglasses to those in need, we provide fishing events and camps for the blind, we sponsor and operate a tractor show and weekend-long town festival just for fun and community enrichment. We advertise our membership in our club at all of these events. We would like to continue to offer those things which we do and continued membership requires new faces from time to time. Hell, here's a pitch, Lions Club International is a fantastic program. Save your current Civ game and go look up your closest chapter one day this week.

Does this make me a drone? Does the yellow vest strip personal credit from the more generous of my fellow Lions? The organization is the people, they care.

I hope I am misinterpreting but it seems as if you can't see past the symbol of those participating in service because they choose to pool their efforts then that is, well, just plain shallow.
 
We advertise our membership in our club at all of these events. We would like to continue to offer those things which we do and continued membership requires new faces from time to time.
That sounds reasonable.

But i am sure you can see how investing work and money into converting people in say Asia or Africa to Mormonism as a necessary precondition for the continued existence of some LDS food drive in Idaho or the venue that allows downtown to play basketball is a bit of a stretch to say the least.
 
Well, to keep carrying with the Lions example we certainly do attempt to recruit people globally. Local chapters have local involvement wherever they may be.

I would suspect that Mormons as well in Asia and Africa have more than enough local opportunities to keep their hands full as well rather than only food drives in Idaho.
 
I'd hardly call trying to get people to join your church "charity work". It is actually just the opposite.
 
I'd also point out that the metric used by the OP would actually be a sign that a church is not worth donating to.
A charity that donates it's contributions to charity is simply a middle-man who provides nothing but his expenses. If a church donated 100% of it's income to other charities, it would not be a charity at all.
 
Can you explain to me why a charitable organization would give money to other organizations?

BTW I'm going to throw this out there but SecularHumanism.org is probably a bit biased against religious organizations.

In the same way that Americans For Prosperity is biased against poor people?

I don't trust the US military to police their own, I don't expect the SEC to protect the interests of the general public, why should we expect religious institutions to behave any more morally?

We have seen far too many examples of how religious organizations fall victim to the exact same human imperfections as all other human constructs.

I thought a link from that sort of a group would be a good starting ground for a discussion of this topic. Not nearly as interesting as a press release from a Synod, right?
 
In the same way that Americans For Prosperity is biased against poor people?
Well, yes. It's not really a good example is it?

I don't trust the US military to police their own, I don't expect the SEC to protect the interests of the general public, why should we expect religious institutions to behave any more morally?

We have seen far too many examples of how religious organizations fall victim to the exact same human imperfections as all other human constructs.
I agree with you fully, but I think the stuff you linked to is very superficial in it's examination, not because of any supposed bias, but because it uses a very poor model. As I showed, it's a metric that giving to much to charity makes them almost criminally suspect, while some of the best charities in the world don't do very well according to it. My favorite charity is the Himalayan Cataract Project. It spends 100% of it's budget on it's own needs, and gives zero away. I give to it however because consumer advocate agencies deem it one of the best charities you can give to.

I thought a link from that sort of a group would be a good starting ground for a discussion of this topic. Not nearly as interesting as a press release from a Synod, right?
Depends on the press release, but you're right. If the intention is to start a conversation, it's a good one. So the question is, how can we make a better model to determine charitable efforts?
We've got lots of good brains for this kind of thing, so let's try and come up with something and then find some data.
 
As you can probably tell by now, I'd much rather see that money put to better use. Education, anyone?

It is worth noting that many religious institutions underwrite schools and universities. Catholic parochial schools are an excellent example as they provide superior education for fair less than many other private schools.

When you discuss education as a better way to spend your charitable giving, consider just where that's going as well. When you donate to your alma matter's alumni fund is that money going to provide a scholarship or to put in a new stadium. (Of course a new stadium might bring in more money for scholarships. Just shows how complex the ethical calculus of charitable giving can be.)
 
I think providing a means of indoctrinating future generations isn't charity by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if they actually ran totally free secular schools with no religious instruction whatsoever in poor neighborhoods which accepted everybody no matter their religious beliefs that would be an entirely different story.
 
Ok, to ask you directly as well Formaldehyde, is Lions Club International voiding its charitable status in your point of view by recruiting membership at its events? Is this merely opposition on principle to an organization that doesn't share your worldview?
 
I must admit I know close to nothing about them. Does Lion's Club use their events to proselytize and spread their own religious views? Or are they a secular organization which provides charity to everybody regardless of their beliefs and political views with no strings attached?
 
Last I checked the Lions spread our worldview to who we can when we can.

Last I also checked churches generally use their religious ideas to influence what sort of work they do, not to whom they provide aid when they are able.

Neither club nor church I am involved in requires any sort of membership nor shared ideal to be the recipient of support. Both are happy to indoctrinate our ideals when able. I see no particular reason to differentiate between a secular charity and a religious one except for some form of distaste on principle.
 
I've never seen any Catholic charity that required baptism to receive charity. How would they even check for that? Fill out some paperwork and hope your old diocese hasn't chucked the records?
 
I think providing a means of indoctrinating future generations isn't charity by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if they actually ran totally free secular schools with no religious instruction whatsoever in poor neighborhoods which accepted everybody no matter their religious beliefs that would be an entirely different story.

I can tell you what happened in my experience in Catholic parochial schools. During my primary education (one year, eighth grade) attendance at religious events (ie Mass) was mandatory. I don't recall whether participation was mandatory; I don't think it was but it was certainly expected. It was generally expected that you were Catholic if you were going to that school. Catholic values were integrated into many parts of the curriculum and were stressed, but did not overshadow actual education. I think religious education classes were mandatory. After an unpleasant incident, my punishment was to sit in front of the statue of the Madonna and mediate and pray about my actions.

During my secondary education (all four years), attendance at religious events was mandatory but participation was not (since these were whole school events this makes sense from a safety standpoint; you can't have some children absent from a whole school event very easily). Indeed, the school would often invite in clergy from other faiths to participate in important Masses (such as before Easter, Christmas, and graduation). Catholic values were present, but not stressed except in cases where they illustrated an ethical point. In general, the actual values were not solely Catholic but instead generally mirrored common ethical standards. Religious stuff didn't enter into academic education; in one incident a classmate of mine raised the question of creationism during biology class--he was pretty much laughed out by the teacher (it's worth noting that Catholicism accepts evolution as a physical fact, but the teacher made it clear he was teaching science and not religion). Religious education was mandatory for Catholic students only; students of other faiths could opt out of religious education. It was not assumed that the students were Catholic and no effort was made to proselytize to them other than attendance at Mass. Contentious Catholic values, such as the ban on abortion and birth control, were not stressed or forced upon the student body, although it occasionally came up in religious education in a "by the way" type way.

It is worth noting that my primary education and secondary education took place in two different states. I grew up in a some what rural town and then went to high school in a small city. This may account for why the secondary education was less Catholic focused and more cosmopolitan, but I would assume that my experiences are likely similar to others who attended parochial schools.

When I attended (public) college, I found that my grasp of various academic elements was superior to many of my peers who attended public school. I credit this to the value of the parochial education I received.

I am almost certain that students attending Catholic colleges, such as Georgetown or Notre Dame, are not obliged to attend any sort of religious service, although I'm sure that religion is integrated in various ways, such as through opening prayers and the like.

An education at a religiously funded school does not necessarily mean that the students are being indoctrinated. That said, how a parochial school operates differs from how schools operated by other religious work. There certainly are schools run by churches that really indoctrinate their students. That said, I would not be at all surprised if other religiously supported schools, such as Quaker schools (for example), have even less focus on religion than I had during my education.
 
Well, to keep carrying with the Lions example [...]

It's not a good example. I explained it what way i feel the two are alike, for arguments sake. But for the most part they are obviously rather different.

Lions Club actually devotes a vast majority of the work and money donated into the actual charitable activities while most churches dilute that with say "maintaining the necessary infrastructure" as well as stuff that has nothing to do with the charitable activity at all.
Lions Club sure does other things (all sorts of social gatherings among members i presume) but as far as their economics are concerned charity represents (again presumably) the crushing majority of their activities.
Charity is their business model so to say.
That's not true for churches. Their predominant activity is advocating the tenets of their faith, community building among adherents and all that. Charity, however valueable, is a sideshow.
If starbucks decides to buy an acre of rainforest or two that doesn't make it a charity. Neither does aiding the poor make the typical organised church a charity.

It's a fig leaf. And that that's the term one would use in that context should give you some pause.
Any Lions Club scripture or ideology you want to quote that has shaped our society in a similar way? Do Lions Club officials appear before Congress to explain their views on women's healthcare and is such appearance nationally televised and recieves broad attention?
A lot of people only go to church, and wouldn't donate if it wasn't there.
Then my suspicion would be that these people care about the church a great deal more than about the charitable work.
That's fine with me. I am sure some churches are better than others, some religious tenets are better than others. So why not support a church? It's perfectly fine. But it's not exactly charity.
 
I think providing a means of indoctrinating future generations isn't charity by any stretch of the imagination. Now, if they actually ran totally free secular schools with no religious instruction whatsoever in poor neighborhoods which accepted everybody no matter their religious beliefs that would be an entirely different story.

Yeah, we don't need anymore indoctrination than already is happening in schools. :rolleyes:
 
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