How many realms of existence/universes/simulations are there?

[Mouthwash]

Obedience. Or something. Also, you're assuming that God commanded you to charity, instead of putting you in a world where it's your decision if you should.

...he did. Anyway, if you believe this, what's stopping you from committing crimes if you think you won't get caught? Or exploiting the helpless?

I didn't say it answered why we (or, I guess, I) was created.

It is a significant part of our existence, and is central to basically all philosophies.

 

[El_Machinae]

Why don't I do bad things? Ostensibly, because I was told not to. It's the same reason why many faithful don't hurt people, despite having a poorly formed moral philosophy

Alternatively, the real answer is because I don't believe in God. I don't struggle with the problem of evil. I don't really struggle with solipsism, other than recognizing that it makes questions regarding consciousness difficult to answer

 

[Mouthwash]

Why don't I do bad things? Ostensibly, because I was told not to. It's the same reason why many faithful don't hurt people, despite having a poorly formed moral philosophy

Alternatively, the real answer is because I don't believe in God. I don't struggle with the problem of evil. I don't really struggle with solipsism, other than recognizing that it makes questions regarding consciousness difficult to answer

I don't expect high moral standards from atheists, so these admissions come as little surprise.

 

[El_Machinae]

You must remember, I am discussing two things. One discussion is assuming that the problem of evil is a real conundrum. The second discussion is from an atheist perspective. I'm probably not distinguishing between the two carefully enough.

[edit 40 minutes later]: oh, just realized that you were being insulting. Ah well, that didn't take long.

 

[Mouthwash]

If you were teleported back in time to the Antebellum South with lots of money, would you buy a plantation and set up a slave harem for yourself? That was the custom of the country, after all.

 

[El_Machinae]

That question comes out of nowhere. You might be mistaking me for someone who thinks that morality is subjective.

...he did. Anyway, if you believe this, what's stopping you from committing crimes if you think you won't get caught? Or exploiting the helpless?

It's interesting how the different faiths asked questions that are nonsensical from their own perspective. Like, I don't know any theists who aren't dividing by zero when they say "why be good, if you don't think you'll get caught?"

The question doesn't make any sense, since being caught is part of the entire paradigm. Only the Atheist needs to answer that question in any real sense

 

[Farm Boy]

Then you change caught to bear negative external repercussion. As distinct from the harder concept of doing evil being a form of self harm. Confounded by entities that are possibly incapable of that specific type of sin, because in their actions deliberately causing pain and suffering in others they derive no self harm, only pleasure. Which is kinda junky because while possibly being true, putting end value internal to self rather than external to self echoes and makes things operate in the superorganism somewhat shittier.

But w/e. The answer to the thread is whatever.

 

[Narz]

The only flaws in reality are those which the critters capable of conjuring have conjured up.

Sounds like you have stockholm syndrome.

As critical thinking creatures, humans are pretty critical of things and it is easy for us to find things that are not to our liking. That is just us talking.

Duh. Who I am supposed to speak on behalf of if not sentient beings?

Note : All religions & pretty much every belief system ever have a human-centered bias.

If you make assumptions about design, creation, purpose, no purpose, god, gods, right and wrong, then you can complain in the context of those assumptions. If you change those assumptions, the nature of one's complains will likely change. The human perspective is a very limited and self centered one so we have lots to complain about. If you set aside that human perspective are there a set of assumptions that make the world perfect?

How would I set aside my human-based perspective? I'm human, everyone I care about is human (although I also like animals & trees).

Could those assumptions include some notion of god? What might that notion of god be like? Would there be any benefits to such an intellectual
construct and would those benefits be better ones that the typical way we view reality?

After 40 years consideration my answer becomes a stronger & stronger no each year.

A caveat : I can see benefits to such belief, I am just not capable of it. You ever read Flowers for Algernon? It's like that, in the beginning Charlie thought his coworkers who bullied him were his friends, this idea probably gave him some benefit, once he got smarter he realized he was wrong, he could never go back to his original belief.

I'm not seeking comforting thoughts at the expense of more-in-touch-with-reality thoughts... even though, since it's likely that I, individually, can do nothing about my mortal plight, it may actually be more logical to do so. But I have to believe in a world where humans grow better and better at playing god, because it's the only reality I want to support. The idea that this reality is already good enough is kind of like political apathy, it's not possible if you actually pay attention.

Haha, implantable pleasure wire straight into the brain.

No that's not what I mean. I don't mean ulitmated bliss forever while we do nothing, I just mean we redesign our own brains for maxmimum joy instead of survival until just after reproduction in a dangerous world. The alterness, focus & energy of coffee mixed with the tranquility & confidence of 40-years of meditation combined w 200mg of mdma, generally increased dopamine which which will cause more productive behavior not less.

Not flatline bliss which leads to nothing but an overall radically increased baseline which can still increase further based on positive action but one who's baseline-level is so high that addiction caused by depression & craving will never occur. We will already have bliss but we will still want (but not CRAVE) to share it with others & to mold it & grow it.

Obviously to survive in reality we'd still have to be alert to threats but we wouldn't live in constant worry about them.

Just imagine the chillest person + the smartest person + the most creative person x thousands.

A famous math guy has given humanity 760 years - 50% chance of extinction.
He called the Berlin Wall coming down correctly I think.
https://www.vox.com/the-highlight/2...rgument-calculation-prediction-j-richard-gott

Cool, I'll check that out.

The sun is literally too bright. (G-type star)
Would be better if it was a dimmer k-type star, with much less UV and longer lifespan.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habitability_of_K-type_main-sequence_star_systems

Maybe with enough time we could relocate. Not in the near future but if we get over the hump & survive another few hundred thousand years.

unpopular opinion: multiverse is not a theory, but a fantasy for people so in love with life as a concept they can't get over the idea of a possible life or possible world somehow not existing somewhere. when (human) life is deemed the most worthwhilhe thing there is then this is the logical coping mechanism.

Possibly. Can you think of anything better than human life? Even the tweaks I'd make as god are essentially human upgrades.

Human life is the most interesting thing in the known universe, the idea that once we croak we're gonna magically upgrade to something even better... well, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, I'd rather maximize my journey in this vessel as long as possible, sooner or later it will fail and then I'll get to find out if any of my spiritual friends were right but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Berzerker]

https://climb-utah.com/Misc/ninemile.htm

there's our 7th heaven

the creator armed with bow and arrow takes aim at the horned deity with 5 sheep between them

 

[AdamCrock]

Each time I go to sleep I create (dream up) a new universe into life than I wake up and the universe is left alone to deal with itself - everyone pretty much doing the same I think (unless he/she does not sleep and dream). Imagination is so powerful in sentient beings that it makes me feel like it's the storngest hint of God's spark in us.
I have also sometimes wondered if I make a choice - for example to eat a cucumber and not tomatoe today - an another universe is born where I have chosen tomatoe instead

 

[Birdjaguar]

Sounds like you have stockholm syndrome.

I do not understand how this applies.

Duh. Who I am supposed to speak on behalf of if not sentient beings?

Note : All religions & pretty much every belief system ever have a human-centered bias.

How would I set aside my human-based perspective? I'm human, everyone I care about is human (although I also like animals & trees).

Escaping one's human biases, even for a few minutes can be difficult. The easiest path is an intellectual one where you imagine a reality in which life as we experience it is not the prime mover. Hinduism and Buddhism are such frameworks. Atheism can be too. There are others. If you could put one a pair of glasses that showed you everything at the quantum level, what would it look like? What happens to self? Might that experience alter your thinking about reality?

After 40 years consideration my answer becomes a stronger & stronger no each year.

A caveat : I can see benefits to such belief, I am just not capable of it. You ever read Flowers for Algernon? It's like that, in the beginning Charlie thought his coworkers who bullied him were his friends, this idea probably gave him some benefit, once he got smarter he realized he was wrong, he could never go back to his original belief.

I'm not seeking comforting thoughts at the expense of more-in-touch-with-reality thoughts... even though, since it's likely that I, individually, can do nothing about my mortal plight, it may actually be more logical to do so. But I have to believe in a world where humans grow better and better at playing god, because it's the only reality I want to support. The idea that this reality is already good enough is kind of like political apathy, it's not possible if you actually pay attention.

I read the book and saw the movie. The reality of a glow worm is different than yours. Which is real?

Your individual capability is connected to your time and place and circumstances. None of us are very good at predicting the future. Our world is what it is. Keep looking and treasure your companion daughter.

 

[El_Machinae]

Then you change caught to bear negative external repercussion. As distinct from the harder concept of doing evil being a form of self harm.

A lot of the morality changes if you include God in the equation, or not. I really appreciate the insight 'doing evil is a type of self harm'
- with God in the equation, there's no such thing as 'not being caught'
- with God in the equation, there's one more proximate actor (me, my subject, and God all directly 'caused' the evil that I am doing)

It also doesn't change some things. Evil actions continue to bear negative external repercussions. There are victims of the evil. As well, there are many (!) distal actors to the equation. I'm not just stealing my neigbour's goat because he has one and I'm hungry, but I am hungry because previous people eroded the ecology and caused an artificial shortage of food. We're not just victims of our own decisions, but also victims of history.

We're so used to uncertainness in our language these days. We're all capable of imagining that there are a variety of futures that are possible. But, only some people are capable of imagining that all of those futures actually happen. I'm certainly not one of those people.

 

[Mouthwash]

That question comes out of nowhere. You might be mistaking me for someone who thinks that morality is subjective.

You said you only followed ethical rules because you have been 'told to' (by society, I presume). This and your talk of solipsism suggests you believe in a world populated by mindless automatons, on which no blame should fall upon you for taking advantage of.

 

[Perfection]

Four hundred quintillion three hundred seventy two quadrillion eleven trillion four hundred ninety two billion one hundred fifteen million three hundred twenty seven thousand four hundred and twelve and three quarters

 

[Narz]

I do not understand how this applies.

You are prisoner to the universe you find yourself in so you try to believe it's the best of all possible worlds.

Escaping one's human biases, even for a few minutes can be difficult. The easiest path is an intellectual one where you imagine a reality in which life as we experience it is not the prime mover. Hinduism and Buddhism are such frameworks. Atheism can be too. There are others. If you could put one a pair of glasses that showed you everything at the quantum level, what would it look like? What happens to self? Might that experience alter your thinking about reality?

It might but eventually I'd have to come back & deal with work & thirst & back pain.

I read the book and saw the movie. The reality of a glow worm is different than yours. Which is real?

Your individual capability is connected to your time and place and circumstances. None of us are very good at predicting the future. Our world is what it is. Keep looking and treasure your companion daughter.

Our world is what it is but it could be improved upon. Accepting reality as perfect is kind of a passive place imo.

 

[bernie14]

Isn't it all Aristotle's cave until we can somehow share our....?...."oneness"?

 

[El_Machinae]

You said you only followed ethical rules because you have been 'told to' (by society, I presume). This and your talk of solipsism suggests you believe in a world populated by mindless automatons, on which no blame should fall upon you for taking advantage of.

No, I said that solipsism solves the problem of evil. You then asked what is the motivation to not be evil. I answered presuming the scenario, that God had created the universe just for me and had told me to obey him even though it's fundamentally pointless. There are only two entities in that scenario, me and God. To assume that I was referring to society is ... A little confusing

I never said that I believed in solipsism.
You should have recognized this, because you know that I'm an atheist. Atheists don't struggle but the problem of evil, in general it tends to be a struggle for certain types of theistic theologies

 

[Mouthwash]

Alright, then. But almost all theists subscribe to some form of revelation, which opposes solipsism and tells them to be unselfish (except if you're a Joel Osteen-type Christian, I guess). So your theory is not likely to find much traction among them.

 

[El_Machinae]

Alright, then. But almost all theists subscribe to some form of revelation, which opposes solipsism and tells them to be unselfish (except if you're a Joel Osteen-type Christian, I guess). So your theory is not likely to find much traction among them.

Yes, nearly no one actually believes in solipsism. I'm just saying it provided a solution to the conundrum.

Most theists cannot answer the question "why be good if you won't get caught?", except as a theoretical question where you presume away God.

 

[Farm Boy]

Can psychos sin, or is their capacity more similar to that of the Leviathan, or cancer? Cancer doesn't seem to set out to kill itself with its success, seeing as its failure is also mortal. Wherein lies its self-harm? Had it the capacity.

As for imagination, on what scope, on what scales?

Everything changes when people reinterpret purpose, especially if you force them to presume it away is part of a hypothetical.