How should the West contain Russia?

[hossam]

Because then Russia will come to get the rest.

Seriously, I explained it in the OP:

Russian government wants control. Soon most of Western, Southern, Central and Eastern Europe will be dependent on oil/gas supplies from Russia, which will make it vulnerable and open to extortion and intimidation. That's a good reason in its own right.

As for the US, it is certainly not in American interest to have Europe under Russian influence. Such Europe would not be an useful ally, which is why the US helped it during the Cold War.

The West has proclaimed that democracy and freedom are its core values. Protection of these values must be a top priority, even when other interests dictate otherwise. Sure, the West could use Russian cooperation, but I believe the price it would have to pay for it is too high.

well its all part of the free market, europe could always buy oil elsewhere and russia wouldnt get its money, europe could use nuclear energy aswell. also russia can never go to war with the EU, they would get pwned

 

[Winner]

The first step is a unified front from the West. Eastern European nations must not allow France, Germany, and Italy to sell them out for Russian gas. United Eastern Europe holds a good deal of sway in the EU, and with the UK on their side they can stand up against Western European appeasement tendencies. You hear all the time from the Europhiles about how the EU is not really just France/Germany +vassals and that there really is one "European" interest. Yet now, yet again, it seems that whatever those two nations want they get, regardless of how much it screws over the rest of Europe.

Not gonna work. The key is to persuade the remaining Western Europeans that Russia is not a trustworthy partner. Fortunately the Russian government is making it a lot easier with all that aggressions against small countries in Caucasus, oil shortages, KGB-style murders of Russians abroad and crackdowns on free press back home.

Countries like Poland, Czech Republic and the Baltic countries are using the influence they have in the EU institutions to persuade the other members, that a tougher action against Russia is necessary. Russian government is giving them good arguments literally every day.

 

[Snorrius]

^^Agreed! Where do we start?

Well, if I to become Russian Emperor, Central Europe is obviously out of question. It is useless waste of resources to incorporate them. Let them play in EU. What is really need to be done is: uniting Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, maybe a couple of other former Soviet republics into common economy space (it may be one state or confederation like EU), securing Far East and our sphere of influence, tightening ties with Mongolia if China will allow this, and then - surprise: all focus should be on internal colonization, and Moon and Mars.

I am pretty serious here about last statement. For a centuries exploration of new lands was a main drive of human civilization development, so we need a new goal now as Earth is fully colonized. Such a goal will give a boost for fundamental science, economy and is rather good alternative to WW, which is another possible but bloody alternative way. Not to say that if will not found some way to get helium3 from Moon, we can stuck out of options on the Earth for eternity.

 

[Defiant47]

What's absolve? If you mean dissolve, then you're insane. NATO is the only think that still scares the crap out of Russian militarists. If it wasn't for this organization, Baltic states and Ukraine would now be under Russian occupation.

See, it's this kind of paranoia that everyone needs to get rid of. The Soviet union is no more, and all that remains is a partially broken superpower nation that's trying its best to retain influence in light of the US's incredible power.

NATO is an alliance specifically against Russia. You're not going to make friends by making alliances specifically against them. We already have the UN, why do we need NATO?

Tell me Winner, why shouldn't Russia join NATO?

 

[Winner]

Well, if I to become Russian Emperor, Central Europe is obviously out of question. It is useless waste of resources to incorporate them. Let them play in EU. What is really need to be done is: uniting Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, maybe a couple of other former Soviet republics into common economy space (it may be one state or confederation like EU), securing Far East and our sphere of influence, tightening ties with Mongolia if China will allow this, and then - surprise: all focus should be on internal colonization, and Moon and Mars.

I am pretty serious here about last statement. For a centuries colonization of new lands was a main drive of human civilization development, so we need a new goal now as Earth is fully colonized. Such a goal will give a boost for fundamental science, economy and is rather good alternative to WW, which is another possible but bloody alternative way. Not to say that if will not found some way to get helium3 from Moon, we can stuck out of options on the Earth for eternity.

That won't work, because Moon will already be colonized by Americans, Chinese, Europeans, Japanese and Indians. Russia is, economically speaking, a dwarf. It can't afford its own space programme now, which is why it approached ESA.

 

[Defiant47]

Not gonna work. The key is to persuade the remaining Western Europeans that Russia is not a trustworthy partner. Fortunately the Russian government is making it a lot easier with all that aggressions against small countries in Caucasus, oil shortages, KGB-style murders of Russians abroad and crackdowns on free press back home.

Countries like Poland, Czech Republic and the Baltic countries are using the influence they have in the EU institutions to persuade the other members, that a tougher action against Russia is necessary. Russian government is giving them good arguments literally every day.

You'd think that, but politicians know better. Your viewpoint is one of pure Western propaganda, and I bet that at the very top, both Russian and Western politicians know the true effects of the situation. I sincerely doubt that American leaders actually believe Russia to be "reverting to its old imperialistic ways", though I'm sure they enjoy thrusting that viewpoint on any and all gullible enough to believe it.

 

[Winner]

See, it's this kind of paranoia that everyone needs to get rid of. The Soviet union is no more, and all that remains is a partially broken superpower nation that's trying its best to retain influence in light of the US's incredible power.

Poor Russia, we must let her bully sovereign countries so she doesn't feel old and weak...

NATO is an alliance specifically against Russia. You're not going to make friends by making alliances specifically against them. We already have the UN, why do we need NATO?

NATO has officially stopped being an anti-Russian alliance in the early 90's. Too bad the Russians didn't accept it.

Tell me Winner, why shouldn't Russia join NATO?

For starters, Russia still considers NATO as its enemy...

 

[Defiant47]

Poor Russia, we must let her bully sovereign countries so she doesn't feel old and weak...

Try not bullying her, and she won't bully back. Simple, no?

NATO has officially stopped being an anti-Russian alliance in the early 90's. Too bad the Russians didn't accept it.

For starters, Russia still considers NATO as its enemy...

Then invite them into NATO. Make the world a nice, big happy place. Give them the same benefits that all members of NATO enjoy. (though at this point it may be too late, and they will likely, with good reason, have huge suspicions of such a move)

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Спасибо повеселило/"thanks, entertained me"

Yeah, right. The West didn't care about Russia at all until the Russians decided that they must keep expanding to shake off the shock of the Mongol invasion.

So? West expanded to Americas. Try to learn history of Central Asia a bit, so you could understand why Russia expanded there. Anyway this is nor your story, nor your business.

And this "we're the victims" mentality is incredibly pathetic.

I don't feel like a victim. Just trying to "dot one's i's and cross one's t's".

The West didn't force Russia to adopt communism. It really didn't.

West doesn't force. Usually. It "assists" . More effective way.

I know that the Russians tend to believe we were fooled by the evil Americans to become part of the West, but in reality that's what we wanted.

I don't believe in that and don't know anyone of my age who does. But I know a lot of people who don't think about Czech Republic at all. Could you imagine that?

BTW, you were moderately popular in Czechoslovakia until 1968, then you totally wasted your reputation here for the next 100 years. It's the same story in other countries. You attacked them, oppressed them and now you wonder why they don't like Russia.

Czechoslovakia, Poland, Baltic countries, Finland. What other countries?

And the more you deny the reality and the more aggressive your country is, the more resentment is there going to be. Start using your collective brains, perhaps you'll realize that your government is leading you to isolation, poverty and misery. Just like the previous red one.

I hope the more West denies reality, the more decisive Russia will be.

Start using your collective brains, perhaps you'll realize that your government is leading you to isolation, poverty and misery. Just like the previous red one.

They didn't. They built up the country.
BTW I don't have "collective brains". Where in the body does it placed?

 

[Winner]

Try not bullying her, and she won't bully back. Simple, no?

Who bullies Russia? Georgia? Ukraine? Estonia?

And don't even start with that "US is trying to destroy Russia" crap, you're not on a Russian forum.

Then invite them into NATO. Make the world a nice, big happy place. Give them the same benefits that all members of NATO enjoy. (though at this point it may be too late, and they will likely, with good reason, have huge suspicions of such a move)

Sure, after they become democratic, peaceful and they comply with all the other conditions, I am all for it

 

[Gelion]

Well, if I to become Russian Emperor, Central Europe is obviously out of question. It is useless waste of resources to incorporate them. Let them play in EU. What is really need to be done is: uniting Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, maybe a couple of other former Soviet republics into common economy space (it may be one state or confederation like EU), securing Far East and our sphere of influence, tightening ties with Mongolia if China will allow this, and then - surprise: all focus should be on internal colonization, and Moon and Mars.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69

 

[sgrig]

Russia (or rather its leadership) genuinely feels threatened by NATO and US, and it is a well-known fact that attack is the best form of defense. This is what Russia is doing now, even though in my personal opinion, they went a bit too far in this current Georgia crisis. Russia has a historical paranoid fear of invasions which from time to time was justified. WW2 only strengthened this fear. During the Cold War, while the West had trouble sleeping fearing a Soviet attack, the Soviet leadership was actually totally convinced (and possibly not without grounds) that given the opportunity NATO would attack first. So much of the Cold War was about making sure that there is a protective buffer between Russia and its potential enemies. Whenever there was a danger that a piece of this buffer would fall out, Russia acted swiftly and brutally (GDR'53, Hungary'56, Czechoslovakia'68, Afghanistan'79).

After the collapse of USSR, Russia settled for a status quo where there was still a narrow buffer separating Russia from the West. Moreover, in the 90's Bill Clinton even promised at some point that NATO wouldn't enlarge to include ex-Soviet states. However after the expansion into the Baltics, Russia got nervous, now threatened with expansion into Ukraine and Georgia, it is genuinely alarmed, and its leadership felt that they need to make a move. Moreover, the prospect of a US Anti-Missile defense system right next door isn't making things better.

Surrounded by US-allied Ukraine, Baltics and Georgia, Russia would indeed be extremely vulnerable to a hypothetical conventional attack. Russia's conventional forces are in a dire situation, so even no nuclear attack would be needed to completely disable the European part of the country. So I totally understand why the leadership is alarmed. With US airbases in Ukraine, say, even a limited air campaign (for example to force "regime change") against Russia would be devastating.

I think what the West has to do is to stop exarcebating the situation by making new threats to Russia, but rather address the old threats, and agree on some compromises. If they say that NATO is not aimed against Russia, then who is it aimed against? Terrorists from Afghanistan? Well, I doubt Ukraine or Georgia need protection from them.

Further threats and further isolation of Russia will just make it even more aggressive, and this will be a vicious circle. If the West wants to claim the high moral ground in this, they need to make the first move to stop the escalation. Crisis talks have to be held with Russia to discuss not each problem separately - Georgia, Missile defense, Ukraine, but everything together to try and pinpoint what can be done to normalise the situation. Clearly the current post-Cold War security arrangements in Europe are now inadequate. Compromises have to be made on both sides.

One way out (or maybe forward) that I see, is to invite Russia into NATO, together with all the other former Soviet republics. This would require some change on part of NATO, and change on the part of Russia, but to avoid further potential conflict in Europe, I see this as one of the best solutions. If Russia is part of NATO, it won't have to be afraid of a potential NATO attack, and the border between Russia and Ukraine won't be a border between NATO and a potentially hostile country. Such a move would also make Russian generals sleep better at night. I'm sure some of them have nightmares of millions of Chinese soldiers crossing the border in the Far East!

 

[Gelion]

Poor Russia, we must let her bully sovereign countries so she doesn't feel old and weak...

Emotions alert.

NATO has officially stopped being an anti-Russian alliance in the early 90's. Too bad the Russians didn't accept it.

Cool! Re-define it then. Officially. Make a public statement.

For starters, Russia still considers NATO as its enemy...

It did not in the 1990's. Maybe someone broke a few promises?

 

[Snorrius]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=69

It seems you doubt I will become Russian Emperor. I do not sure about this myself.

 

[Winner]

Emotions alert.

More like "sarcasm alert"

Cool! Re-define it then. Officially. Make a public statement.

Already done Unforunately, the recent Russian actions will probably force it to re-re-define.

It did not in the 1990's. Maybe someone broke a few promises?

Ah, the "broken promises" myth strikes again. Nobody promised you anything and nobody gave you a licence to act like you still owned half of Europe. It's your problem you didn't get it.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

Already done

Oh, yeah. We are sticking your border, because we are in fear of Iran.

 

[Gelion]

Russia (or rather its leadership) genuinely feels threatened by NATO and US, and it is a well-known fact that attack is the best form of defense. This is what Russia is doing now, even though in my personal opinion, they went a bit too far in this current Georgia crisis. Russia has a historical paranoid fear of invasions which from time to time was justified. WW2 only strengthened this fear. During the Cold War, while the West had trouble sleeping fearing a Soviet attack, the Soviet leadership was actually totally convinced (and possibly not without grounds) that given the opportunity NATO would attack first. So much of the Cold War was about making sure that there is a protective buffer between Russia and its potential enemies. Whenever there was a danger that a piece of this buffer would fall out, Russia acted swiftly and brutally (GDR'53, Hungary'56, Czechoslovakia'68, Afghanistan'79).

After the collapse of USSR, Russia settled for a status quo where there was still a narrow buffer separating Russia from the West. Moreover, in the 90's Bill Clinton even promised at some point that NATO wouldn't enlarge to include ex-Soviet states. However after the expansion into the Baltics, Russia got nervous, now threatened with expansion into Ukraine and Georgia, it is genuinely alarmed, and its leadership felt that they need to make a move. Moreover, the prospect of a US Anti-Missile defense system right next door isn't making things better.

Surrounded by US-allied Ukraine, Baltics and Georgia, Russia would indeed be extremely vulnerable to a hypothetical conventional attack. Russia's conventional forces are in a dire situation, so even no nuclear attack would be needed to completely disable the European part of the country. So I totally understand why the leadership is alarmed. With US airbases in Ukraine, say, even a limited air campaign (for example to force "regime change") against Russia would be devastating.

I think what the West has to do is to stop exarcebating the situation by making new threats to Russia, but rather address the old threats, and agree on some compromises. If they say that NATO is not aimed against Russia, then who is it aimed against? Terrorists from Afghanistan? Well, I doubt Ukraine or Georgia need protection from them.

Further threats and further isolation of Russia will just make it even more aggressive, and this will be a vicious circle. If the West wants to claim the high moral ground in this, they need to make the first move to stop the escalation. Crisis talks have to be held with Russia to discuss not each problem separately - Georgia, Missile defense, Ukraine, but everything together to try and pinpoint what can be done to normalise the situation. Clearly the current post-Cold War security arrangements in Europe are now inadequate. Compromises have to be made on both sides.

One way out (or maybe forward) that I see, is to invite Russia into NATO, together with all the other former Soviet republics. This would require some change on part of NATO, and change on the part of Russia, but to avoid further potential conflict in Europe, I see this as one of the best solutions. If Russia is part of NATO, it won't have to be afraid of a potential NATO attack, and the border between Russia and Ukraine won't be a border between NATO and a potentially hostile country. Such a move would also make Russian generals sleep better at night. I'm sure some of them have nightmares of millions of Chinese soldiers crossing the border in the Far East!

I could just kiss you!
http://thejosevilson.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fresh-prince-of-bel-air-will-smith.jpg
However I doubt people will respond to your post, certainly not with logical arguments.

 

[scy12]

I'm just trying to oppose. I don't like when they use Russia in the same context too.

The West is most unificated civilization in the world both in actions and in culture. Nowadays only Muslims can be equated. This is not bad, not good, this is out of moral debate.

If a person tries to reproach one culture in something bad he should be sure that his own culture could not be reproached in same things or at least he should not turn a blind eye to similar facts.

You are aware that many "western" Nations have extremely different policy and relationship with Russia ? I don't see why you should put them in the same group. You say some people who don't know better (like winner) do the same with Russia but really that is no excuse.

 

[sgrig]

I could just kiss you!
http://thejosevilson.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/fresh-prince-of-bel-air-will-smith.jpg
However I doubt people will respond to your post, certainly not with logical arguments.

If you are indeed a guy, then I'd rather you didn't!

I don't like arguing, so I'm just posting my thoughts on this situation. You are right, as long as this forum is dominated by Winner, whose anti-Russian hysteria is just overwhelming, there is little scope for a balanced, logical discussion.

 

[REDY]

I think that is one of the best weapons of west to save independent countries. Invite immediately to NATO all threatened countries which are democratic.

About oil, I think its decision of Russian government, I dont know what we should do besides use other kinds of energy.