How should the West contain Russia?

[Quildavyr]

Make an alliance with US then attack.Easy

 

[Defiant47]

Who bullies Russia? Georgia? Ukraine? Estonia?

The Western powers united along with the US.

And don't even start with that "US is trying to destroy Russia" crap, you're not on a Russian forum.

Truth is only allowed on a Russian forum?

Sure, after they become democratic, peaceful and they comply with all the other conditions, I am all for it

They are democratic and as peaceful as the United States. I don't know what other conditions are necessary.

 

[GoodGame]

Sounds basically similar to the USA's problems with other parts of the world. Most of the dilemmas, except the military projection, are firmly half the fault of Europe. We should all get off of petroleum.

 

[Grimz101]

Whatever happend to USA's isolation, why are they causing stirr in foreign affairs thousands of miles away..
The fact is its a Russian reaction to American influence encroachment on Russia's sphere of influence.
People need to understand there is no right or wrong..
They are both wrong, and i should be World leader..

 

[BrendanM]

Reinvade Vietnam!

 

[Enkidu Warrior]

It shouldn't

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Don't get MAD, get Glad!

 

[Gelion]

However I doubt people will respond to your post, certainly not with logical arguments.

As I was saying. Figures.

 

[Yeekim]

Russia (or rather its leadership) genuinely feels threatened by NATO and US, and it is a well-known fact that attack is the best form of defense. This is what Russia is doing now, even though in my personal opinion, they went a bit too far in this current Georgia crisis. Russia has a historical paranoid fear of invasions which from time to time was justified. WW2 only strengthened this fear. During the Cold War, while the West had trouble sleeping fearing a Soviet attack, the Soviet leadership was actually totally convinced (and possibly not without grounds) that given the opportunity NATO would attack first. So much of the Cold War was about making sure that there is a protective buffer between Russia and its potential enemies. Whenever there was a danger that a piece of this buffer would fall out, Russia acted swiftly and brutally (GDR'53, Hungary'56, Czechoslovakia'68, Afghanistan'79).

After the collapse of USSR, Russia settled for a status quo where there was still a narrow buffer separating Russia from the West. Moreover, in the 90's Bill Clinton even promised at some point that NATO wouldn't enlarge to include ex-Soviet states. However after the expansion into the Baltics, Russia got nervous, now threatened with expansion into Ukraine and Georgia, it is genuinely alarmed, and its leadership felt that they need to make a move. Moreover, the prospect of a US Anti-Missile defense system right next door isn't making things better.

Surrounded by US-allied Ukraine, Baltics and Georgia, Russia would indeed be extremely vulnerable to a hypothetical conventional attack. Russia's conventional forces are in a dire situation, so even no nuclear attack would be needed to completely disable the European part of the country. So I totally understand why the leadership is alarmed. With US airbases in Ukraine, say, even a limited air campaign (for example to force "regime change") against Russia would be devastating.

Agreed.

I think what the West has to do is to stop exarcebating the situation by making new threats to Russia, but rather address the old threats, and agree on some compromises. If they say that NATO is not aimed against Russia, then who is it aimed against? Terrorists from Afghanistan? Well, I doubt Ukraine or Georgia need protection from them.

Exactly, new members on NATO do not intend to attack Russia, they seek PROTECTION against it.

Further threats and further isolation of Russia will just make it even more aggressive, and this will be a vicious circle. If the West wants to claim the high moral ground in this, they need to make the first move to stop the escalation. Crisis talks have to be held with Russia to discuss not each problem separately - Georgia, Missile defense, Ukraine, but everything together to try and pinpoint what can be done to normalise the situation. Clearly the current post-Cold War security arrangements in Europe are now inadequate. Compromises have to be made on both sides.

On the other hand, lack of adequately firm response will no doubt be perceived as weakness in Kremlin, and new step would be taken to "test the limits". After all, "attack your enemies while they are weak and indecisive" is very sensible military doctrine.

One way out (or maybe forward) that I see, is to invite Russia into NATO, together with all the other former Soviet republics. This would require some change on part of NATO, and change on the part of Russia, but to avoid further potential conflict in Europe, I see this as one of the best solutions. If Russia is part of NATO, it won't have to be afraid of a potential NATO attack, and the border between Russia and Ukraine won't be a border between NATO and a potentially hostile country. Such a move would also make Russian generals sleep better at night. I'm sure some of them have nightmares of millions of Chinese soldiers crossing the border in the Far East!

This would be great, but I very much doubt Russia would accept this. Probably this would just split NATO.

IMHO, to become allies, two nations need either common values or common enemies.
Unfortunately, USA/Europe share next to no common values with Russia.
Western world values democracy. American or British soldiers might fight and die in the name of democratic values, such as free elections, freedom of speech and etc, since they believe (imho correctly)that these values have brought prosperity and power to their respective nations.
Russia on the other hand has nearly no experience of democracy, and what little it has, (period from 1905-1918 and Yeltsin era) is extremely negative.
Based on my contacts with Russian people, democratic concepts are somewhat obscure for them, and their merits highly doubted. There is nothing wrong with it per se - transition from one system into another can't possibly happen in a day. (Again, Yeltsin's catastrophic leadership was probably a major chance lost for the world, as this has seriously discredited democracy in Russia for decades. )
Today the problem is, that Russian leadership seems to be not interested in this kind of transition at all - while Russian people perceive that they are living in a regime that is, after all, still the most liberal of any they can remember - probably except for total failure of cowboy capitalism in 1990-s. - and economically pretty successful at that - so they really can't see what is lacking. So no common values in near future I am afraid... and unless Mars attacks us or Muslim world joins into New Kaliphate and embarks on jihad against rest of the world, no common enemies as well...

Bleak prospects, really, and no good solution occurring to me.

 

[CurtSibling]

How should the West contain Russia?

More like how can we pretend to punish Russia and still get all that lovely gas/oil from them?

 

[Desert-Fox]

Yeekim also told that why NATO cannot invite Russians, because they have nothing to share(values, enemies). It would be possible when we would have greater threat, for example aliens from more developed civilization who are aggressive against the Earth.
It was a couple of years ago when Putin stated that the collapse of USSR was the biggest geopolitical disaster in 20th century. Now Medvedev said(Maybe Putin told him) that Russia will protect his citizens or fellow Russian speakers in other countries. They showed in Georgia how it will be. It theoretically means that the country where live at least one Russian citizen or Russian speaker have same dangers than Georgia. And it is similar doctrine what Hitler had when they protected Germans in other countries and demanded lands where lived a lot of Germans(Austria, Sudedia, Klaipeda). Also Russia have no buried the idea to restore the USSR(maybe not 100% equal but still the Power, land etc.). But the other nations do not want that and they seek protection and the only one is NATO. Russia sees a threat because it makes their goals a lot harder. So simple is that. Russia do not fear that NATO will invade them one day, they fear that they cannot get back the previous power and influence.

And Russians in Estonia and Latvia have opportunity to get citizenship, they just need to know local official language, they need to know their history, national anthem etc. But a lot of them cannot count to ten in these languages, so how they should get citizenship? But in Soviet time I had to learn Russian in kindergarten and it was told that it is not good when parents speak Estonian language with kids, they should speak Russian instead. So do not be surprised why Russians are hated everywhere, they just give a lot of reasons. If you want that Russians are loved everywhere then you have to do something for it.

 

[RedRalph]

do you think ukranians who can only speak Russian should be stripped of their citizenship?

and I think its patently obvious Russians are not hated everywhere, you xenophobic nutcase.

 

[Gelion]

So do not be surprised why Russians are hated everywhere, they just give a lot of reasons. If you want that Russians are loved everywhere then you have to do something for it.

I do not have a lot of time, but just want to mention this.
EU, civilized world and its rights apply to all subjects without discrimination. This is one of the pillars of Western civilization that I, personally, have come to respect. I do not give a (you know what) weather I am loved or hated by random people. What I care about is that my rights are respected and my opinion is taken into consideration. If that is achieved then "love" can spread. Maybe you should learn something about the world you claim to be a part of.

 

[Arwon]

Yeekim also told that why NATO cannot invite Russians, because they have nothing to share(values, enemies). It would be possible when we would have greater threat, for example aliens from more developed civilization who are aggressive against the Earth.
It was a couple of years ago when Putin stated that the collapse of USSR was the biggest geopolitical disaster in 20th century. Now Medvedev said(Maybe Putin told him) that Russia will protect his citizens or fellow Russian speakers in other countries. They showed in Georgia how it will be. It theoretically means that the country where live at least one Russian citizen or Russian speaker have same dangers than Georgia. And it is similar doctrine what Hitler had when they protected Germans in other countries and demanded lands where lived a lot of Germans(Austria, Sudedia, Klaipeda). Also Russia have no buried the idea to restore the USSR(maybe not 100% equal but still the Power, land etc.). But the other nations do not want that and they seek protection and the only one is NATO. Russia sees a threat because it makes their goals a lot harder. So simple is that. Russia do not fear that NATO will invade them one day, they fear that they cannot get back the previous power and influence.

And Russians in Estonia and Latvia have opportunity to get citizenship, they just need to know local official language, they need to know their history, national anthem etc. But a lot of them cannot count to ten in these languages, so how they should get citizenship? But in Soviet time I had to learn Russian in kindergarten and it was told that it is not good when parents speak Estonian language with kids, they should speak Russian instead. So do not be surprised why Russians are hated everywhere, they just give a lot of reasons. If you want that Russians are loved everywhere then you have to do something for it.

Regardless of past Russian sins, why shouldn't Estonia be bilingual given that people there speak both languages?

 

[Desert-Fox]

I do not respect people in forum who add offensive words like "nutcase", "idiot" etc. Ukrainian and Russian languages are not exactly the same. Also I agree that people from Tonga, New Zealand, Argentina etc.(Countries whose are far away from Russia) do not hate Russians, they have no reason.

 

[Gelion]

I do not respect people in forum who add offensive words like "nutcase", "idiot" etc. Ukrainian and Russian languages are not exactly the same. Also I agree that people from Tonga, New Zealand, Argentina etc.(Countries whose are far away from Russia) do not hate Russians, they have no reason.

I have a lot of reasons to hate the Germans. My family members died by their hands. I don't
I have a lot of similar reasons to hate the Bolsheviks. I do not. (EDIT; I actually deeply resent them)
I have a lot of reasons to hate the Americans for their attitude and actions. I do not.
I have a lot of reasons to have the Poles for their revanchism and anti-Russian hysteria.

Maybe it just depends on what kind of person you are?

 

[RedRalph]

I do not respect people in forum who add offensive words like "nutcase", "idiot" etc. Ukrainian and Russian languages are not exactly the same. Also I agree that people from Tonga, New Zealand, Argentina etc.(Countries whose are far away from Russia) do not hate Russians, they have no reason.

Or Serbia, Belarus, Armenia, the Central Asian former SSR's, a large part of the Ukraine.... so tell me this, if Estonia should deny citizenship to people who can only speak Russian, should Ukraine do the same? Its 100 % comparable, now stand on your principals. should Ukraine do the same?

 

[Desert-Fox]

Regardless of past Russian sins, why shouldn't Estonia be bilingual given that people there speak both languages?

Because Estonia is not bilingual in nature, the "Russian minority" has been come here vastly in 1978-1988 when Estonian SSR was Ruled by Karl Vaino who called himself as Russian-Estonian. He didn't know anything about Estonian language but who was perfect tool for Estonian Russification. In other hand Estonia doesn't consider himself as new country born in 1991, we are 50 years occupied by Soviet Union and then restored our independence. Almost same goes for Latvia. Making Estonia and Latvia officially bilingual and giving citizenship to everyone makes great danger for our countries, it just doesn't fit here. Also I think in Germany there is not even meant to make Turkish language as official. Also Arabian language in Old Western-Europe because there are a lot of immigrants.

PS : If you would live in Estonia then you would see that it is not easy to get job when you can't speak in Russian(in Tallinn at least) because you have to speak with customers who are local Russians who cannot count to ten in Estonian language.

 

[Desert-Fox]

I have a lot of reasons to hate the Germans. My family members died by their hands. I don't
I have a lot of similar reasons to hate the Bolsheviks. I do not. (EDIT; I actually deeply resent them)
I have a lot of reasons to hate the Americans for their attitude and actions. I do not.
I have a lot of reasons to have the Poles for their revanchism and anti-Russian hysteria.

Maybe it just depends on what kind of person you are?

It's little different. In Estonia Germans are not hated anymore because they have learned from history and apologized what they have done and are no threat to world anyone. Germans were hated before 1918. Bolsheviks are history not reality. About Americans, they still have no goals to conquer Russia. About Poles, it would be same that fox hates chicken because chicken is afraid to be eaten by fox.

If Russia would act as Germany did and have not threat for us then Russians are not hated so much and maybe none at all.

 

[RedRalph]

BS. Its the usual attempt at using history to justify prejudice and xenophobia against Russians by certain eastern Europeans. they always claim their hatred is justified and not comparable to any other situation, even though if I took this same attitude I would be one of the complete idiots who hates anyone from Britain.