How should the West contain Russia?

[Desert-Fox]

Cato the Elder : Russia is also changed and in 1990s it seemed that they are not so aggressive but now they are very. And if the Russians who emigrated in 1980s and feel that their government was stupid then then they may feel sorry and go back to their homeland but if they feel that their government made right decisions then they are colonists and can't get equal rights when they haven't learned local language, customs etc... "Vsjo naši, pazor, hosjaini vernulis" are not what will make friendship between two nations.

 

[Shekwan]

We could just encase Russia in a Diamondilium sphere and forget about all our problems. We've got to go no holds barred on the budget though none of that cheap knock off Diamondium stuff.

 

[Gelion]

Could someone please explain to me why the former Warsaw Pact-made-EU is having such a hard time getting over the past? I mean yeah sure the Soviets did terrible things, but the world's still changed and will keep changing whether you accept it or not. To my demise, the only Russians I regularily hear something about are the ones on this forum, but from what I've read in their varying opinions it doesn't seem like most Russians are hell-bent on recolonising the Baltic States.

So please, get over it. At the least, try to make sure it looks like you're the more honourable in this argument and treat Russians, so long as they can articulate themselves decently in the Estonian, Latvian, whatever language, (while still having the possibility of reading official documents in their native Russian) as regular citzens instead of planning to force them into second class fake citzenship just because of what some idiots in government did 20+ years ago.

There's one view held by our Czech EU activist winner that Russians deserve what they are getting and should be treated as they are. I guess it simply depends on your level of education weather you are bent on "justice" or not. Russians have grievances too. Enough of them.

 

[red_elk]

Could someone please explain to me why the former Warsaw Pact-made-EU is having such a hard time getting over the past? I mean yeah sure the Soviets did terrible things, but the world's still changed and will keep changing whether you accept it or not. To my demise, the only Russians I regularily hear something about are the ones on this forum, but from what I've read in their varying opinions it doesn't seem like most Russians are hell-bent on recolonising the Baltic States.

So please, get over it. At the least, try to make sure it looks like you're the more honourable in this argument and treat Russians, so long as they can articulate themselves decently in the Estonian, Latvian, whatever language, (while still having the possibility of reading official documents in their native Russian) as regular citzens instead of planning to force them into second class fake citzenship just because of what some idiots in government did 20+ years ago.

The roots of problem are much deeper. There is border, big chasm between different cultures, super-ethnicities and religions. Border lies between Russia and Baltic states, Belorussia and Poland, and goes through Ukraine. We cannot understand each other. They afraid us. We'd hate them too, if we would weeker, as it was before XVIII century.

 

[Shekwan]

The roots of problem are much deeper. There is border, big chasm between different cultures, super-ethnicities and religions. Border lies between Russia and Baltic states, Belorussia and Poland, and goes through Ukraine. We cannot understand each other. They afraid us. We'd hate them too, if we would weeker, as it was before XVIII century.

No two ethnic groups cannot work together no matter how different. Why can't you ''understand each other''. They don't speak Russian?

 

[red_elk]

No two ethnic groups cannot work together no matter how different. Why can't you ''understand each other''. They don't speak Russian?

Re-read please question I was answering to, and my answer. It should be pretty clear what I meant.

 

[Shekwan]

Re-read please question I was answering to, and my answer. It should be pretty clear what I meant.

Yeah the guy is asking why the Baltic states can't get along with Russia and vice versa and you're responding with some bs about not understanding each others cultures and there being a huge chasm between the two societies. So what is this huge gap? Compromise is impossible?

 

[red_elk]

Yeah the guy is asking why the Baltic states can't get along with Russia and vice versa and you're responding with some bs about not understanding each others cultures and there being a huge chasm between the two societies. So what is this huge gap? Compromise is impossible?

For example, I don't like people who call my point of view "bs" without trying to understand anything. And then asking me to explain.

May be this is because of different culture.

 

[Gelion]

No two ethnic groups cannot work together no matter how different.

I beg to differ! Just look at Switzerland!

 

[RedRalph]

Citizenship is based on having met conditions to get it and not just being in that country.

and one of those conditions is to have the correct political opinion?

 

[Desert-Fox]

Germans, Italians and French are way closer than Estonians and Russians.

 

[Desert-Fox]

and one of those conditions is to have the correct political opinion?

No! Only need to know language, history and national anthem. Maybe something about culture too.

 

[Winner]

the west already picks and chooses who it recognises, it wouldnt change its position on formosa/Taiwan because of chinese recognition of Abkhazia. and Moscow is not dissapointed, because they knew full well thats there was no way China would officially recognise it.

Get out of your anti-Western shell. Russia was almost visibly disappointed, it certainly expected more from the Chinese "allies", especially after all the effort Russians have made to get the two coutnries closer to each other.

China is clearly trying to avoid getting bogged down in the same swamp of hypocrisy as the Western nations. If it recognized Abkhazia and the other criminal den, it would just give the others an excuse to recognize Taiwan if it decided to declare independence.

China is doing the same thing it always does - keeping low profile, trying not to draw too much (negative) attention. China, unlike Russia, does not want to get into an open conflict with the West. Clever thing to do, if you ask me.

 

[Yeekim]

and one of those conditions is to have the correct political opinion?

Please stop trolling. I have explained at length:
a) reasons, why current system of obtaining citizenship is like it is;
b) conditions necessary to gain citizenship;
c) actual position of Russian language in Estonia.

If you were genuinely interested in the situation, you would have read what I posted or linked and you would not ask such BS. Please, stop your efforts in demonstrating that I and DesertFox are "fascist xenophobes". Even if it were true, it would be absolutely irrelevant in assessing the real situation on the matter.

 

[RedRalph]

Get out of your anti-Western shell. Russia was almost visibly disappointed, it certainly expected more from the Chinese "allies", especially after all the effort Russians have made to get the two coutnries closer to each other.

China is clearly trying to avoid getting bogged down in the same swamp of hypocrisy as the Western nations. If it recognized Abkhazia and the other criminal den, it would just give the others an excuse to recognize Taiwan if it decided to declare independence.

China is doing the same thing it always does - keeping low profile, trying not to draw too much (negative) attention. China, unlike Russia, does not want to get into an open conflict with the West. Clever thing to do, if you ask me.

Exactly. thats what I'm saying. Russia never expected China to openly back them, they knew that wouldnt happen. the knew the best they could hope for was no criticism, which is what they got. It amounts to a tacit approval, of course in an ideal world for Russia's POv china would give a big endorsement, but no one in russia seriously expected that.

 

[RedRalph]

Please stop trolling. I have explained at length:
a) reasons, why current system of obtaining citizenship is like it is;
b) conditions necessary to gain citizenship;
c) actual position of Russian language in Estonia.

If you were genuinely interested in the situation, you would have read what I posted or linked and you would not ask such BS. Please, stop your efforts in demonstrating that I and DesertFox are "fascist xenophobes". Even if it were true, it would be absolutely irrelevant in assessing the real situation on the matter.

no, sorry, he said

But people who do not want to learn Estonian and dream about Estonian SSR still doesn't deserve Estonian citizenship.

, so he believes one of the factors which decide if you deserve Estonian citizenship should be your opinion of the Estonian SSR. so he does indeed think your political views should be 'correct' if you are to obtain (or keep) Estonian citizenship.

 

[Yeekim]

For example, I don't like people who call my point of view "bs" without trying to understand anything. And then asking me to explain.

May be this is because of different culture.

No, this is because of simple ignorance.

 

[Yeekim]

so he believes one of the factors which decide if you deserve Estonian citizenship should be your opinion of the Estonian SSR. so he does indeed think your political views should be 'correct' if you are to obtain (or keep) Estonian citizenship.

You put the cart in front of the horse.
Everybody who shows a minimum amount of goodwill and respect towards his homeland by passing language exam and constitution exam, can get citizenship.
If you have not done this in nearly 20 years, in spite millions our government has spent on integration programs and free language lessons and campaigns, you obviously have neither good will nor respect.
Ergo, you are yourself refusing to take the citizenship that is there for taking, ergo you neither deserve or actually need it.Ergo your actual interests lie in complaining how awfully local fascist discriminate against you.
Q.E.D.

(Although, to be fair against local Russians, I once more mention that most of the complaining is actually done by Kremlin on their behalf and probably does not reflect what majority of them really feels)

 

[RedRalph]

You put the cart in front of the horse.
Everybody who shows a minimum amount of goodwill and respect towards his homeland by passing language exam and constitution exam, can get citizenship.
If you have not done this in nearly 20 years, in spite millions our government has spent on integration programs and free language lessons and campaigns, you obviously have neither good will nor respect.
Ergo, you are yourself refusing to take the citizenship that is there for taking, ergo you neither deserve or actually need it.Ergo your actual interests lie in complaining you awfully local fascist discriminate against you.
Q.E.D.

(Although, to be fair against local Russians, I once more mention that most of the complaining is actually done by Kremlin on their behalf and probably does not reflect what majority of them really feels)

you have completely ignored my post. He said a political opinion should be a factor in wether you get citizenship. If you are going to reply to this post either address that fact directly or dont reply at all. I'm not saying this is your opinion, I never did, I'm saying its DesertFox's, and it is. Again: address this or stop replying.

 

[Yeekim]

you have completely ignored my post. He said a political opinion should be a factor in wether you get citizenship. If you are going to reply to this post either address that fact directly or dont reply at all. I'm not saying this is your opinion, I never did, I'm saying its DesertFox's, and it is. Again: address this or stop replying.

Please, read again what I wrote.
Political opinion IS factor whether one gets citizenship or not, because taking citizenship is voluntary. I repeat - if one has neither enough good will nor respect, if one "dreams of Estonian SSR", then one simply does not take it. I believe it fair to say that one does not deserve it either in this case, but that is not really relevant.