How to get a job (or not)

[rah]

If you want the bucks, management is the way to go. (based on personal experience) but there are many other jobs in larger corporate environments as long as you have any communication skills. Tech liaisons with the account/marketing groups, Tech facilitators, Documentation, process improvement, and the never ending "QUALITY"
And if you can't communicate there's always data/system security.

 

[Birdjaguar]

I feel that women would enjoy programming more if they were introduced to it early enough in school. But as far as I know high school (or earlier) level programming courses are usually optional, so women almost never take them (cause it'll be all guys in there, so..)

I feel that women would enjoy programming more if there were more women programmers for them to socialize with at work.

 

[Birdjaguar]

If you want the bucks, management is the way to go. (based on personal experience) but there are many other jobs in larger corporate environments as long as you have any communication skills. Tech liaisons with the account/marketing groups, Tech facilitators, Documentation, process improvement, and the never ending "QUALITY"
And if you can't communicate there's always data/system security.

I think that the questions about "Where might I want to be in 15 years?" are important ones to think about.

 

[warpus]

I know this is going to show my age but "SO WHAT"
I took typing and home ecc. Why, cause that's where all the girls were.

Yeah, we had plenty of girls in typing class in high school and even plenty of girls in grade 10 computer class.. but once you reach grade 11 it was mainly guys, because the class was all about programming. Now, if you made that programming class mandatory, it would be a step forward, IMO.

At what point do coders get tired of coding and long for something different? Moving into management can be a "bridge too far" for some, so what other alternatives are their?

Hmmm.. For me the answer is "not yet" and maybe "never". I really do enjoy building things for people to use, and the problem solving involved. That's why I went into this field. I didn't do it to manage people, I have absolutely 0 interest in doing that, unless it's in a position where I would still continue to spend most of my time programming.

There's enough variety in the field though. If you get bored of server side web development, you can move on to game development. or COBOL. Or if you have your db knowledge down you could be a db admin. Or a data analyst. Or you could try your hand at coding the code that runs on interactive kiosks.. or drones.. or.. there's just so much out there.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

At what point do coders get tired of coding and long for something different? Moving into management can be a "bridge too far" for some, so what other alternatives are there?

Testing hardware is an alternative. Almost all hardware runs on software of some kind so even if you are not the guy writing the software, knowing how that software might work makes you super valuable in testing hardware.

 

[rah]

Yeah, actually I get tired of management and think up any excuse to do a bit of coding so I can feel like I actually accomplished something.

 

[rah]

I think that the questions about "Where might I want to be in 15 years?" are important ones to think about.

15 years is 15 years. You may still love it or may be burned out. Besides in 15 years the industry is probably going to change so much that what you decide now will be immaterial.

Hell when I started out it was all mainframes and punch cards and eventually dumb terminals. When PCs came out with full screen editors we all laughed and figured it was the death of main frames which quickly lost their luster. Now with the cloud we're going back to dumb terminals and large servers. Who would have thunk it?

 

[warpus]

I feel that women would enjoy programming more if there were more women programmers for them to socialize with at work.

It's all about perception, not reality. At my last office I worked at they now have 3 female developers (plus 5 male developers). Yet this has absolutely no impact on convincing women to become developers, since students don't ever peek into that office and see women programming.

The women that do work there, I really doubt they decided to join the team because there were other women there either. They joined the team because they viewed it as a good place to work and all the other usual professional considerations people have in mind. And it's not like female programmers can't socialize with male programmers. When I decide whether to accept a job offer or not, I don't look at how many men there are in the office, so that I can socialize with them. I do however look at the sort of people that are employed there and the general work culture and the types of people it attracts. Based on that I can determine if I'll be a good fit on the team or not.

Female programmers oftentimes have a lot more in common with male programmers than they do with women who do other types of jobs, let's say dental assistant or HR manager. We're all geeks, whether we're male or female, it's a lot easier for us to get along whether we have penises or vaginas.

 

[rah]

I always based my decisions on power and money Mostly anyway.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

It's all about perception, not reality. At my last office I worked at they now have 3 female developers (plus 5 male developers). Yet this has absolutely no impact on convincing women to become developers, since students don't ever peek into that office and see women programming.

The women that do work there, I really doubt they decided to join the team because there were other women there either. They joined the team because they viewed it as a good place to work and all the other usual professional considerations people have in mind. And it's not like female programmers can't socialize with male programmers. When I decide whether to accept a job offer or not, I don't look at how many men there are in the office, so that I can socialize with them. I do however look at the sort of people that are employed there and the general work culture and the types of people it attracts. Based on that I can determine if I'll be a good fit on the team or not.

Female programmers oftentimes have a lot more in common with male programmers than they do with women who do other types of jobs, let's say dental assistant or HR manager. We're all geeks, whether we're male or female, it's a lot easier for us to get along whether we have penises or vaginas.

To me, however, how many woman are in a firm is a useful heuristic for the type of people it employs, regardless of gender. If I see a 50/50 workforce I'm less likely to think that they hired a bunch of insufferable sheldon-types because it tells me that they are a sought after company that has the pick of the litter. Seeing how the overall tech workforce doesn't come close to 50/50, the closer a company gets to that ratio the higher the overall talent and likability of the workers.

My theory is that such a company would be have to be so desirable that they have enough applicants to afford them the opportunity to be picky and wind up at that ratio, which is a huge departure from the norm. And if a company is that desirable then they have the pick of the litter and only great employees are hired and stick around.

Note: I've never been in a tech firm with anything close to 50/50 but the ones that were 70/30 generally had a more likable and talented pool than ones that were 90/10. Also this only applies to my current industry and maybe the wider tech industry in general. It certainly wasn't true in the food service industry.

 

[warpus]

To me, however, how many woman are in a firm is a useful heuristic for the type of people it employs, regardless of gender. If I see a 50/50 workforce I'm less likely to think that they hired a bunch of insufferable sheldon-types because it tells me that they are a sought after company that has the pick of the litter. Seeing how the overall tech workforce doesn't come close to 50/50, the closer a company gets to that ratio the higher the overall talent and likability of the workers.

Hmm I don't understand this point. Most programmers are male, so if a company was hiring the best programmers, chances are they are mostly going to be male.

 

[rah]

To me, however, how many woman are in a firm is a useful heuristic for the type of people it employs, regardless of gender. If I see a 50/50 workforce I'm less likely to think that they hired a bunch of insufferable sheldon-types because it tells me that they are a sought after company that has the pick of the litter. Seeing how the overall tech workforce doesn't come close to 50/50, the closer a company gets to that ratio the higher the overall talent and likability of the workers.

My theory is that such a company would be have to be so desirable that they have enough applicants to afford them the opportunity to be picky and wind up at that ratio which is a huge departure from the norm. And if a company is that desirable then they have the pick of the mill and only the great ones are hired and stick around.

Note: I've never been in a tech firm with anything close to 50/50 but the ones that were 70/30 generally had a more likable and talented pool than ones that were 90/10.

I don't think the ratio proves any of those things.
I've seen female Sheldon types.
They may have quotas that force them to select less qualified people to fill them.
They may be so desperate for workers that they hire anybody regardless of their skill level.
I've heard people say the fewer the woman the more respect they give them since the odds are stacked against them.

But while it proves nothing, I've had better experiences where there is a higher percentage. Small sample sizes though.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Hmm I don't understand this point. Most programmers are male, so if a company was hiring the best programmers, chances are they are mostly going to be male.

If a company has so many applicants that it can choose to hire an equal number then that practically guarantees they have only the best. They have a glut of candidates and can pick the best of both genders and do so because they can and it reinforces how good they are.

If a company has the typical M/F ratio then that tells me nothing about the types of people they hire. At best it tells me the group is average.

 

[warpus]

If a company has so many applicants that it can choose to hire an equal number then that practically guarantees they have only the best. They have a glut of candidates and can pick the best of both genders and do so because they can and it reinforces how good they are.

If you know that they indeed do get a ton of applicants of both genders, then I see it. But if you have no idea how many applicants they get, the 50/50 gender split could just be HR doing their thing.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

HR can't run that roughshod over a company to be able to skew the gender numbers meaningfully. Managers won't sign off on a bad candidate just because they are the right gender according to HR.

I'm also unaware of any real quotas in my industry. They couldn't have them if they wanted to since there are so few woman.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

Anyways this discussion needs less me and more female input. I begin to get uncomfortable after a while because I have no idea if I'm being deeply offensive or something that I just don't understand being a white dude in a white dude industry.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

 

[warpus]

Either way, IMO the way to get more women into programming positions is to make programming mandatory courses in elementary and high school. And sure, you can't force people to like things, but you can help by exposing them to things at least.

 

[rah]

You could always weave it into math classes. Anyone that can't understand Boolean logic is never going to be a programmer.
Math is still mandatory isn't it?

 

[Birdjaguar]

Adding physics into a middle school curriculum has shown to be meaningful.

http://seethechangeusa.org

 

[The_J]

If I can bump this. I'm one semester (this spring semester + a few summer classes) from graduating with a Bachelors in Computer Information Systems and a minor in English. I'm going to graduate with either no debt or very little debt. I figure I should start planning for the next step, which would obviously be my career. There's no one thing I have my heart absolutely set on, though my favorite option at the moment would be working in a data center. Or I could use my tech skills/English minor route and try to get some journalistic job about tech stuff, though I'm not sure where I'd start with that. I already have a blog where I write a crap ton but I hardly get any hits. Working in IT is also ok with me.

The blog is a nice thing for the CV. It's a proof that you're doing stuff.
If you ever programmed something useful (or semi-useful, but at least working and at least semi-well structured; maybe not a basic calculater though), then also put it on GitHub (or Gitlab, or wheever).
For the same reason, because it's proof you're capable of things.
Probably a better advertisement than a well maintained Linkedin account.

Female programmers oftentimes have a lot more in common with male programmers than they do with women who do other types of jobs, let's say dental assistant or HR manager. We're all geeks, whether we're male or female, it's a lot easier for us to get along whether we have penises or vaginas.

I just recently changed from a "geeky" (however you might want to define that; mostly sort of CS people, both m/f) environment to a non-geeky one (now together with all the lab scientist; mostly f, by chance), and I miss talking about computer crap, the hyperloop or the newest games/consoles, whatever.
Means mainly I agree ^^.