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How would Russia react to EU economic blockade?

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by Winner, Mar 30, 2009.

  1. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    One could say these rights were similarly lacking regardless of race and nationality as well...;)
    Refer to articles 9-15 and 17-21 from Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which our beloved luceafarul loves to quote so selectively, for example.

    Saying that October Revolution, makers of which openly thirsted for "oceans of blood", "reign of total terror" and "dictatorship" (and you, or all persons doubtless know it) was progressive event and benefit to mankind because of some tenuous link to western welfare states is akin to saying that Holocaust was progressive, because experiments of Mengele and his colleagues have greatly benefited medicine. It might have some measure of truth to it, but it is extremely cynical.
     
  2. red_elk

    red_elk Deity

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    What you don't understand? I don't claim the USSR was a paradise of democracy, this is ridiculous.
    The question was how the only nation which used nuclear weapons, which had this:


    about 50 years ago (whereas evil totalitarian USSR had equal rights for all nationalities), can be called "champion of human rights"?
     
  3. GoodGame

    GoodGame Red, White, & Blue, baby!

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    Arguing on the use of nukes is a little bit of a strawman considering the circumstances.

    And not many nations in the history of the world have achieved multi-culturalism in an equalitarian manner.
     
  4. plarq

    plarq Crazy forever

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    Brasil? Maybe.
     
  5. LordRahl

    LordRahl The Objectivist

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  6. Richard Cribb

    Richard Cribb He does monologues

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    1) You still lack some reading abilities, I clearly stated that the October Revolution was a progressive event in itself and for wider reasons. Because it is above you to misrepresent me, isn't it?
    2) I, "of all people" also know that it could have turned out differently but for the foreign interventions to restore freedom and christianity, and in which the first forces from the glorious, moral USA were included.
    3) "Oceans of blod" and "reign of terror" is probably great rhetorics on a forum like this, but not very efective. I, "of all people" am not going to beat a dead horse to explain once again why the revolutionairies couldn't be a bunch of pink fluffy animal lovers sipping their herbal tea while generally loving mankind (see, I can do rhetorics too). It might also have been more than a bit blood and terror connected with the old regime the Western capitalists were so eager to restore.
    4) Bringing in the Nazis are not only an even poorer troll, and also absurd. I am not the one sounding like Goebbels here, and like it or not it was the USSR that contributed most to the struggle against them.
    5) I am "extremely" cynical. People who are not cynical, tend to be sentimental, which is an ignorant and appalling trait. I would prefer then to turn to other things than history or politics.
    6) I see no reason to continue this sort of "debate", neither with you nor with the representative of The Land Of The Free And Righteous By Special Appointment By The Good Lord.
    I, "of all people" bid you a good day.
     
  7. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    The US sponsored a 3rd faction in Cambodia that was set against the Vietmanese propped government, they did not directly support Pol Pot.


    Where is this majority that was helped? The 20+ million that died in purges, famines, and gulags? The millions more who were purged or shipped off but didn't die? Can we add the 15 million dead from the Russian civil war? What about Black Army anarchists who were too revolutionary even for the Reds and got 'removed' for their troubles? And what is this labor rights crap? Lenin removed factory based worker committees and put them under the command of single individuals when it became more convenient for him. Than we got the banning of any press that criticized the new Bolshevik regime, whether the critics be bourgeoisie or reds themselves. We haven't even gotten to Stalin yet and we already get revolution via terror, a secret police, deadly work camps, arbitrary murder, slaughter, torture, and oppression.

    Striking workers seeking such radical things as rations that didn't result in starvation, the elimination of privileges for Communists, free press and elections were rounded up, arrested, and certain numbers of them made examples of via execution. The families of deserters were rounded up with various members executed until the deserters presented themselves, wherein many of them were executed. Families who in any way aided deserters faced similar risks. Members of the wealthier middle class were publicly hung...not because they resisted or worked against the revolution...but because they were wealthier middle class and Lenin wanted to make an example of them.

    Where is this progress? People could not form their own independent labor unions. Hell, even in the Capitalist happy west they were able to manage this. No independent political organization of any kind was tolerated. If you had grievances, they had to go through the state apparatus and we all know the penalties for those who raise a bit too much hell. Life was bad for the peasants, it was bad for the industrial workers, and everyone was under threat of arbitrary abuse and oppression by state forces.

    The record of Communism in just about every state it exported to ain't much better. And where do you get this phantom connection between the Russian Revolution and labor movements in the US and the West? Or between the rise of the Soviets and western creation of the Welfare state? I'd love for you to make that case, but you haven't yet. And just saying it doesn't make it so. Hell there are more than enough examples anti-Communist suspicions (some of them not without merit, I did a few studies on them back in college) leading to the exclusion of more progressive labor unions. If anything the Soviet Union ******** the global labor movement because opposition forces only needed to call them dangerous revolutionaries or secret soviet agents to stop them in their tracks.

    Saved capitalism? Doesn't even merit a response.
     
  8. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    So you agree there were certain, umm, stains on the glorious banner of worker's revolution? Also, the Civil War was fought between Russians first and foremost. The Allied Intervention was half-hearted and insignificant at best. And to blame it for crimes, foundation and ideology for which were laid long before revolution itself, is pure hypocrisy.
    Because establishing a terror regime would probably not be on "to-do list" of someone who loved mankind? I agree. However, you said it would have turned out oh-so-differently if not for these evil interventionists.... I am confused. On a more serious note, Germans managed a revolution without murdering Wilhelm II and his seven children, just to bring a random example.
    I can hardly call Kerensky's provisional government "old".
    According to official line of Russian historians, Stalin desired nothing more than peace with Nazi Germany. To live in peace, to peddle him iron, oil, manganese and rubber it needed, to divide up Europe and to hold joint parades in conquered territories. Never did USSR contemplate attacking Hitler, oh no! But it certainly was not Soviet Union, where Germany could develop its weaponry prohibited by Treaty of Versailles, oh no!
    These seem to be two sides of a single coin - cynical towards victims and sentimental towards perpetrators. They had, after all, such good intentions...
    Thank you. I wish you a good day and pleasant night's sleep. May you dream of Genosse Honecker. :)
     
  9. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    It can't be. But we are drawing a comparison here. :)
     
  10. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    That revolution just exchanged one form of class dominance for another. The Weimar Republic was a partnership between feudal reactionaries (the Junkers) and the SPD class-traitors, dominated by the German financial plutocracy. When the workers tried to revolt for themselves, such as in Bavaria, they were crushed by the army at the behest of the financial magnates.
     
  11. Yeekim

    Yeekim Moderator Moderator

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    So did October Revolution, except that the result was outright "dictatorship of proletariat", not merely "dominance of proletariat"...
     
  12. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    First, we don't have that anymore and haven't for a while. Second, the use of nuclear weapons in that situation saved lives.
     
  13. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

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    Claiming that the United $tate$ of AmeriKKKa has anything to do with freedom and democracy is absurd. It's a totalitarian state with $$$ and big corporations raping the common people. Their so-called "democracy" is nothing but a sham. The President is a puppet controlled by the corporations.

    :p ;)
     
  14. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    *YAWN* I do get tired of this senseless, mindless, baseless hippy crap.
     
  15. Dachs

    Dachs Hero of the Soviet Union

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    Even when it's not serious?
     
  16. REDY

    REDY Duty Caller

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    Ouch my english. I mean that they failed to be moral according any considered morality. As gangsters they have some own perceivation what is moral. While some non-americans see USA as leader of freedom, some socialists Sweden as leader of social justice or some catholics Vatican as leader christian ethics, nobody normal should consider specialities as censorship, great social differences, corruption as highest morality. Therefore critics are more relativizing morality of other countries than puting forward morality of someone else. Other critics use raping of history or conspiracy theories to make some own point. But I would not consider last mentioned as separate perceivation of morality because when you make up some own theory it means more classification according already existed perceivation of morality. IMHO many of Russians and Chinese believe more in theories than in country morality based on nationalism.
     
  17. EnlightenmentHK

    EnlightenmentHK Emperor

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    You never can tell on the internet.
     
  18. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    It's in my long-term plan, don't worry :D

    I need to finalize my EU-Russia war scenario before it actually happens, so that I can then be worshipped as the "guy who knew it would happen" :smug:
     
  19. RedRalph

    RedRalph Deity

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    there is pretty much no way the EU could not beat Russia, after all its 27 or so of the world richest and most advanced countries against one. Any one EU country though (Probably any two or maybe even three), the Russians could take.
     
  20. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

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    EU has many disadvantages, its (lack of) will to fight for starters. It's being further crippled by lack of unity and central government. This will surely play a role in my scenario - in fact it will allow the Russians to advance to Berlin before Europe get its act together and realizes that it is really in war :)
     

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