Sounds so Christian ... could be that this is the tech that ends up founding Islam.
HR Tech Tree Plausibility
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
Force44
King
Medievel islamic philosophy distinguises itself (from contemporary Christian philosophy and classical philosophy) by truth trough revelation.
So perhaps Divine Revelation is an appropriate name?
So perhaps Divine Revelation is an appropriate name?
Is that really a tech though? Sorry for being so critical.
How about Clergy as a replacement for Dogma? As in an organized body of priests including religious leadership, and opposed to Priesthood which is about the concept and role of priests themselves.
The secondary prereq for the tech will likely be somewhat about law or documentation, so that fits. One child tech is Education which is historically appropriate as well.
Clergy is also rather European themed but appropriate in the Middle East as well, and not that much of a stretch for Asian religions.
The secondary prereq for the tech will likely be somewhat about law or documentation, so that fits. One child tech is Education which is historically appropriate as well.
Clergy is also rather European themed but appropriate in the Middle East as well, and not that much of a stretch for Asian religions.
Force44
King
It is philosophy, so I'm not really sure. Lets see what the dictionary says
Spoiler :
almost 5 out of 5, so this dictionary seems to think it is a technology.
My own thoughts on the subject:
It was (is) a very influential new way of thinking. (AO) Descartes' famous Cogito Ergo Sum is based upon it.
The two most famous (here in the west) philosophers were Avicenna (980-1037AD)
Spoiler :
and Averroes (1126-1198AD)
Spoiler :
They commented on/against thinking that was developed/applied (a little) before them, but that may still be a bit later then around when you ideally want the technology to be invented.
Summary:
If Philosophy and Scientific Method are still in, then yes Divine Revelation is a tech and should be placed in between. The exact date it is conceived might differ between reality and the game though.
I have trouble distinguishing between what "Clergy" and "Priesthood" mean in this context. Are we talking about hierarchical religious structures or about the organization of religious belief in a consistent and structured way? Religious Hierarchy could work if it's about the structure of religious organizations (but is pretty Euro-centric since only Christianity (and, on second thought, Shia Islam) has ever really done the centralized priesthood thing among the modern religions--though it's really a Roman pre-Christian innovation).
Both, but the name is more evocative of the former.
It also has the generica Adjective Noun problem.
Force44
King
ps Clergy sounds way more colloquial then Divine Revelation.
So if you want to appease the masses and forsake the filosophers, go for Clergy. Being a philosopher myself I would.
So if you want to appease the masses and forsake the filosophers, go for Clergy. Being a philosopher myself I would.
Right. I just don't see what makes "clergy" different from "priesthood" if that's the intent. They are complete synonyms (except that "clergy" has Christian undertones).
You could also just call it "Hierarchy", I suppose. Hierarchical religious structures derive from hierarchical secular structures, as in the case of Christian bishops inheriting their authority from the remains of the late Roman empire.
So the Google Doc is here.
Legend:
- blue is a tech that is renamed
- yellow is an existing tech that changed position
- green is a new or completely redesigned tech
- removed techs (so far) are below the tree
- indirect links are omitted
- changed links are only marked if none of the involved techs are marked
Legend:
- blue is a tech that is renamed
- yellow is an existing tech that changed position
- green is a new or completely redesigned tech
- removed techs (so far) are below the tree
- indirect links are omitted
- changed links are only marked if none of the involved techs are marked
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Panopticon
Utilitarian
I see Clergy as very much including the monastic arrangements that arose in Christianity and Buddhism.
Small questions:
Clergy should be blue.
Alchemy should be yellow.
Office is politics?
Generalship and bourgeoisie are techs?
Having both bourgeoisie and finance seems wrong. Middle class and banks appeared at the same time and they are so connected that maybe they should be represented by a single tech.
Generalship feels in wrong place. I like this -working line.
Alchemy feels out of the right row.
Drama (oratory) is disconnected from seasonal festivities (calendar).
I like the line priesthood->scholarship->patronage->education
Clergy should be blue.
Alchemy should be yellow.
Office is politics?
Generalship and bourgeoisie are techs?
Having both bourgeoisie and finance seems wrong. Middle class and banks appeared at the same time and they are so connected that maybe they should be represented by a single tech.
Generalship feels in wrong place. I like this -working line.
Alchemy feels out of the right row.
Drama (oratory) is disconnected from seasonal festivities (calendar).
I like the line priesthood->scholarship->patronage->education
Continuing the thread feedback:
Infrastructure as Cement
Cement makes a lot of sense as a tech in the era, but then the prereqs don't match. The prereqs clearly suggest Automobile, and I'd bet money the tech was named that at some point during its inception. It was probably renamed to justify the Transport Ship there and the connections to other techs, but I still prefer Automobile.
Microbiology to replace Sanitation
Microbiology is a good tech because it connects to Biology, Healthcare and Refrigeration. Sanitation on the other hand can be rolled into Urban Planning imo.
Thermodynamics for Steam Power
Again, this is one thing where it's not a coincidence that the theory of Thermodynamics and the practical application of the Steam Engine were contamporaneous. Thermodynamics enabled the optimization of steam engines, and the need for efficient steam engines motivated thermodynamics.
This Proposal
Constitution and Nationalism are in similar positions where I would have them. Anthropology is a great idea to have, actually it even presents a good opportunity to connect this to Biology. Maybe Anthropology can even be implicit but Sociology / Social Sciences seems useful. I'd probably like to keep Journalism though, although I would move it to earlier in the tree. Railroad is probably not required as its own tech.
Mass Media as Television
I'm agnostic to this rename, either works to me.
Patronage requiring Nobility
Agreed.
Chemistry prereq for Electricity
The first discovery of electricity came from batteries so it makes perfect sense in my opinion.
Meaning of Heritage
I agree that it's unclear if the cultural/legal meanings of heritage are the same but I'm willing to squint a little for this.
Chemistry for Refining
Huh. That's right.
Globalisation
As said before, it probably needs a better name for a tech but I think it's good that the tech is there.
Tourism and Ecology
Tourism also does things like National Parks, so I think the implication is not solely cheap polluting mass tourism, but the general raised awareness of other parts of the world and ecological connections and consequences. But it's true that this is a bit weird, will think about it a bit.
Infrastructure as Cement
Cement makes a lot of sense as a tech in the era, but then the prereqs don't match. The prereqs clearly suggest Automobile, and I'd bet money the tech was named that at some point during its inception. It was probably renamed to justify the Transport Ship there and the connections to other techs, but I still prefer Automobile.
Microbiology to replace Sanitation
Microbiology is a good tech because it connects to Biology, Healthcare and Refrigeration. Sanitation on the other hand can be rolled into Urban Planning imo.
Thermodynamics for Steam Power
Again, this is one thing where it's not a coincidence that the theory of Thermodynamics and the practical application of the Steam Engine were contamporaneous. Thermodynamics enabled the optimization of steam engines, and the need for efficient steam engines motivated thermodynamics.
This Proposal
Constitution and Nationalism are in similar positions where I would have them. Anthropology is a great idea to have, actually it even presents a good opportunity to connect this to Biology. Maybe Anthropology can even be implicit but Sociology / Social Sciences seems useful. I'd probably like to keep Journalism though, although I would move it to earlier in the tree. Railroad is probably not required as its own tech.
Mass Media as Television
I'm agnostic to this rename, either works to me.
Patronage requiring Nobility
Agreed.
Chemistry prereq for Electricity
The first discovery of electricity came from batteries so it makes perfect sense in my opinion.
Meaning of Heritage
I agree that it's unclear if the cultural/legal meanings of heritage are the same but I'm willing to squint a little for this.
Chemistry for Refining
Huh. That's right.
Globalisation
As said before, it probably needs a better name for a tech but I think it's good that the tech is there.
Tourism and Ecology
Tourism also does things like National Parks, so I think the implication is not solely cheap polluting mass tourism, but the general raised awareness of other parts of the world and ecological connections and consequences. But it's true that this is a bit weird, will think about it a bit.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
I would call it Social Science to cover both sociology and psychology, which is useful for the connection to Marketing, a potential connection to Surveillance, and perhaps to serve military purposes. Journalism enables nice things too.
I have to admit that like most players (I suspect), I don't care at all about the tech tree beyond 1900.
Separately:
I feel that Seafaring should depend on Pottery. RIP Fishing ;(
Some additional commentary on the current WIP tech tree:
- Generalship is an attempt to connect military developments to social changes, i.e. nobility growing out of a military class. Could use a better name but I can't come up with one. Contract or Law as an indirect prereq.
- Metal Casting: still enables Aqueducts, the idea is that it's required for the pipes in plumbing etc. Makes the connection the Engineering a bit more plausible.
- Siegecraft has Architecture as indirect prereq.
- Office (political office of course), not sure if it's actually a better name than politics.
- Scholarship: alternate name idea: Academia
- Machinery: has Engineering as an indirect prereq.
- Alchemy: has Scholarship as an indirect prereq. I would preferred to connect them directly but it needs to be in directly this row to enable what it enables.
- Patronage: has Nobility as an indirect prereq.
- Finance: has Patronage as an indirect prereq.
- Printing: has Machinery as an indirect prereq.
- Gunpowder: has Alchemy as an indirect prereq.
- Generalship is an attempt to connect military developments to social changes, i.e. nobility growing out of a military class. Could use a better name but I can't come up with one. Contract or Law as an indirect prereq.
- Metal Casting: still enables Aqueducts, the idea is that it's required for the pipes in plumbing etc. Makes the connection the Engineering a bit more plausible.
- Siegecraft has Architecture as indirect prereq.
- Office (political office of course), not sure if it's actually a better name than politics.
- Scholarship: alternate name idea: Academia
- Machinery: has Engineering as an indirect prereq.
- Alchemy: has Scholarship as an indirect prereq. I would preferred to connect them directly but it needs to be in directly this row to enable what it enables.
- Patronage: has Nobility as an indirect prereq.
- Finance: has Patronage as an indirect prereq.
- Printing: has Machinery as an indirect prereq.
- Gunpowder: has Alchemy as an indirect prereq.
I never would have thought of as Literature as a late medieval tech, but it makes a lot of sense and fills that spot quite nicely. Not sure if Urban Planning now connects to the stuff around it but the lower two rows look great.
Yeah, that's my line of thinking as well.
Corrected.
I used green here to signify that the role of the tech got drastically changed, yellow is usually for slightly rearranged techs that moved around in the same column or switched columns in the same era. This was mostly done on the fly to help me keep track of what I changed without much rigor.
Essentially.
Evidently.
They are related but distinct.
I would have liked to switch places with Engineering but it doesn't work out with their prereqs.
In what way? I also would have liked to move it but it's kind of tethered in place by the things it is supposed to enable.
Ceremony is specifically intended to represent those things now.
I can only repeat that I prefer something more succinct than Adjective Noun.
Good point. Nothing against Social Science in particular just that I like things to be succinct if possible. But you're right that keeping it broad might enable other things.
True, I'm moving my way forward through history here for a reason.
That makes sense.
That reminds me, in the light of previous comments I think Pottery also makes a good indirect prereq for Bronze Working.
Rotating the tree in my head...
Heritage: Heritage makes sence as a direct outcome of education and direct requirement of nationhood. It represents the study of classical age at the start of renaiscance era, which inspired renaiscance philosophers about a better political society.
It feeds nationalism because it make peoples remember their glorious past.
It may work: Education->Heritage->Nationhood
Gunpowder: Ideally it would work as:
Steel working (late classical era)->Alchemy (early medieval era)->Paper->Gunpowder
Compass can pop out from alchemy under paper.
Also:
Astisanship->Guilds->Finance/Bourgoiesie
Office:
Office is too similar as idea to civil service. Maybe rename civil service to office and keep Politics?
Heritage: Heritage makes sence as a direct outcome of education and direct requirement of nationhood. It represents the study of classical age at the start of renaiscance era, which inspired renaiscance philosophers about a better political society.
It feeds nationalism because it make peoples remember their glorious past.
It may work: Education->Heritage->Nationhood
Gunpowder: Ideally it would work as:
Steel working (late classical era)->Alchemy (early medieval era)->Paper->Gunpowder
Compass can pop out from alchemy under paper.
Also:
Astisanship->Guilds->Finance/Bourgoiesie
Office:
Office is too similar as idea to civil service. Maybe rename civil service to office and keep Politics?
I put this in place in the WIP document. I thought that it's more appropriate to reimagine Journalism as a late Renaissance tech and make it the secondary prereq to Representation, in the light of how Enlightenment pamphlets drove both the American and French revolutions. Urban Planning as its prereq to show how it depends on growing cities or something.
Not sure which row to put Heritage in and what the other spot should be.
Obviously the whole part of the tree branching off from Scientific Method needs some work, it's problematic that it doesn't connect to the techs below it in two places.
