HR Tech Tree Plausibility

[Ani Taneen]

Double post, please delete

 

[Leoreth]

So you are implying Dante is more important to history than Homer?

Your usual hyperbolic posting style makes it impossible to determine if this is a genuine question or a deliberate misunderstanding just to be contentious.

I don't know how to explain this without repeating the content of the quoted post and the one that endorsed Literature in that position.

A tech is not defined by the word that forms its title, especially not the most broad or most commonly understood meaning of that word. Sometimes a tech represents a specific development or idea that exists only in the context of its surroundings. Then you choose a word to describe that tech.

I don't see how you can derive a value judgment from that.

 

[Force44]

This

One argument I have seen a couple of times about techs with name X is that "X has been used since much earlier than what the position of X in the tech tree implies". I don't think that approach is very useful. It's more important to think of a tech to describe some specific developments that took place during that time, and their effects on history. X is chosen as the name of the tech because that is what those developments were about, even though X could also be used to describe things that existed far earlier.

Take Cartography as an example. It's true that map making was not invented in the late middle ages or renaissance, and obviously map making has involved after that. But I think the tech makes a lot of sense in that position under that name. This is the time where (European) map making became a lot more formalized, and accuracy for coast lines and distances became the major concern instead of things like religious/mythological references. It's not an accident that this development coincided with the beginning of the age of European exploration and so I think it's a great tech because it both encapsulates actual changes in practices (rigor in how maps were made) and the impact those things had on what people were doing (going out exploring the seas). Or vice versa. There's even the argument that more accurate map making including borders etc. was essential in the formation of thought that regarded states as territorial entities instead of a bunch of personal relationships of people owning land (something that I'd like to see reflected actually).

Just a comment to keep in mind when approaching techs from this point of view.

and this

A tech is not defined by the word that forms its title, especially not the most broad or most commonly understood meaning of that word. Sometimes a tech represents a specific development or idea that exists only in the context of its surroundings. Then you choose a word to describe that tech.

should be made sticky somehow.

When keeping this in mind while posting on this subject (HR Tech Tree Plausability) a lot of frustration/repetition can and will be avoided.

Spoiler :

I slightly edited the quotes, so for any misunderstandings it is I who am to blame.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

I don't see how you can derive a value judgment from that.

Because you deem Dante worthy of a tech but not Homer.

 

[Leoreth]

Please come back when you take this seriously.

 

[Ani Taneen]

Forget it, I'm wrong

 

[citis]

Still disagree whith literature. Very important literature works are written in classical era in many places around the world. If medieval literature is important enough for every reason to be represented, then classical is too. If the tech represents the study of classical literature, it is incorporated in heritage and education.

An updated proposal:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N_lt3nS8aCFqA5JpWgCxomMHo4-RTGftgPAY3rGqAIU/edit#gid=0

More specific the changes I propose are these:

For all eras:
*Generally, rename techs according to the material, tool, technique they unlock instead of their social economic result.
*General rearrangement according to the above.
Reason:

Spoiler :

I realised we have the tedency to focus on social and economic concepts more. While this make sence for the sake of developping the social and economic concepts of the game, it goes far from the original scope of a tech tree, which is the technology, the machines the tools etc.

Ancient era:
*Rename mining to pick.
*Renamed/replaced leather working with rope. It includes bows (archery). It makes more clear its relation with next techs.
*New tech: Chariot. It can be researched indepedently from riding.

Classical era:
*Rename Medicine to Herbalism. It is better connected with the agriculture it belongs.

Medieval era:

*Rename chivalry/warrio code/honour to armour.
*Alchemy requires steel and herbalism.
*Rename finance to banking. It includes paperbills.

On old proposals:

Spoiler :

*Alchemy requires steel and herbalism. I was tempted to connect it with philosophy and aesthetics. However, these connections were 1) eurocentric, and 2) focuses on misconception and failure of alchemy. Steel and herbalism focus instead on its success.
3) It makes steel and medicine no-dead-ends.

*Charity: I think this tech is much more important that it appears. It represents the establishement of the first private-ish organisations, while office/civil service represents the establishment of first public organisations. Generally, the idea of organisation is something fundamental especially when we consider where it leads, to civil liberties, and constitutions.

*Jurisprudence: I see that a court system developped before civil liberties, having in mind imperial diet and similar highly centralised courts around the world. It had however, lower power than goverment. Civil liberties incorporated the idea.

Renascance:

*It includes the raw:
Plow->Crop rotation->Urbanisation/Bourgoisie->Urban planning
*Astronomy requires astrolabe/navigation.
*Gunpowder->Rifling->Firearms->Flintlock:
Firearms/Logistics represent the change in military dogma. This change requires rifle.

On jouranlism:

Spoiler :

Journals made possible with assembly line. Before that their edition and circulation was limited.

Industrial era:
On old proposals:

Spoiler :

*General rearrangement, especially Pneumatics, are direct child of thermodynamics and direct parent of refrigeration.

I kept photography, telephone, film. They are literally technologies, so they belong to the tech tree indepedently of their effects. I want to keep them existant.

Modern/global era:
*Automobile requires assembly line.
*Rename nuclear power to (nuclear) reactor.
*Rename particle physics to accelerator, and imo it should stay in the tree.
*Rename surveillance to cryptomachine.
*Rename computers to microprocessor. It requires cryptomachine which represents electromechanical computers.

Tomography->Genetics/Biotechnology

Tomography: It represents from X-rays to MRIs and the great impact of diagnostics in medicine. It requires television (cathode ray tube).

Genetics/Biotechnology: It include genetically modified food.

Future/Digital era:
Rename tellecomunications to network. Put it in different position, the technological requirements are more important than the sociological ones. It requires laser because of fiber optics.

Supermaterials include superconductors. They should have maglev networks as implication.

Added Quantum computing.
Renamed Quantum gravity to Unified Theory.

 

[Leoreth]

Another update on my WIP changes reflected in the spreadsheet: I worked on the Renaissance and Industrial eras quite extensively. I don't think modern and future (they are called global and digital era in HR) require that many changes. I have also started another sheet (second iteration) with more proactive name changes. I'm not committed to all of them, just wanted to put those ideas out there so they can be discussed.

Renaissance era:
- Firearms moved back one column, to follow the gunpowder move. I also think it is appropriate for musketmen to become available in the early Renaissance.
- The other techs in the column that are relevant are Statecraft (represents modern state administration that arose in the early modern era) and Nationhood (the idea that states are entities in their own right). Not sure about this couple because there is a lot of overlap. If one of them is removed it should be Nationhood because nationalism already exists later in the tree. The place should be taken by a culturally themed tech, but I don't know which.
- Logistics moved two columns right with the following tech paths: Firearms & Economics & Statecraft -> Logistics -> Rifling & Hydraulics. The idea is to have it represents the more professionalised armies of the era. Not really happy with that particular name for the phenomenon but it's the best I've got at the moment.
- Rifling also moved back one column. It works better connected to Logistics and riflemen should exist in the Renaissance. Replaceable Parts has been removed because I think it is adequately represented by Machine Tools and Measurement (see below).
- Meteorology renamed Astronomy as previously discussed. The lead in to Physics makes more sense now. The link to Hydraulics makes sense neither now nor before, so I removed it. Instead I think an indirect link from urban planning is better.
- Sanitation removed an Urban Planning moved to its place. Sanitation enables sewers in HR, which makes sense for Urban Planning as well.
- added Measurements as a new tech that follows from Scientific Method (and Urban Planning). It is supposed to represent things like the introduction of standardised units and the instruments required for that, accurate measurement of time and it's impact on navigation and industrialism, as well as the census and similar statistical approaches to government. I'd rather find a less generic name but it's hard to be inclusive of everything (for example geography captures only some of it), and it doesn't seem worthy of two techs either.
- journalism moves back and constitution move forward into the same row. They both suit that period much better and are perfect requirements to representation in my opinion. Civil liberties and heritage switch places so they better connect to those techs and so the former can link to humanities. Measurement also links representation to represent census and districting required for it (maybe optional).

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

- added Measurements as a new tech that follows from Scientific Method (and Urban Planning). It is supposed to represent things like the introduction of standardised units and the instruments required for that, accurate measurement of time and it's impact on navigation and industrialism, as well as the census and similar statistical approaches to government. I'd rather find a less generic name but it's hard to be inclusive of everything (for example geography captures only some of it), and it doesn't seem worthy of two techs either.

You could name it Metric System.

 

[Leoreth]

I actually thought about that, but it goes beyond spatial measurement in concept.

By the way, some commentary on the industrial era and other changes will follow later.

 

[citis]

Rename heritage to archaeology?
It's more explanatory name and suits better a tech tree.

 

[Leoreth]

The link again for convenience.

Industrial era:
- moved all techs in the first column one row up without any changed links to use the place opened by Rifling
- added Nationalism in the bottom row
- Biology takes the place of Fertilizer, requires Measurement and Hydraulics
- Biology and Chemistry lead to a tech that will enable Hospitals and lead to Refrigeration. Initially I wanted to call that tech Microbiology, but suggestions from this thread to have a separate Healthcare tech that includes Public Welfare I decided to also create another tech called Social Services, which probably will also enable Infantry. Since the connection between Microbiology and Social Services is less than obvious I decided to call the tech Medicine, which includes Microbiology by implication. The classical tech has been renamed Hygiene (enabling Baths, an early health building).
- this way Refrigeration now requires Electricity
- moved Labour Unions up a column to link to Biology and Representation. First I could not understand why HR had the link to Fertilizer, but I guess unionization could also arise from the agricultural sector. Will probably flip the prereqs so that it requires Assembly Line and not the other way around. Biology/AL could be OR prereqs. I'm also considering to rename the tech Collectivism to strengthen the socialist implications (I don't think a separate Communism tech is required).
- venturing into the modern era a bit, I decided to rename Marketing to Mass Market. I feel that represents the broadening consumer base of that era and the industries (both economically and culturally) that arose from that better. For instance, the link to Refrigeration becomes more clear, as well as to the Labour Unions -> Social Services line (better distribution of wealth -> more consumers).
- venturing even further, to avoid having two Mass X techs I renamed Mass Media to Television.
- this leaves the two last techs in the bottom row free, and I'm not entirely sure what to put there. The industrial era feels somewhat lacking in cultural and economic techs, but I have no ideas what would connect to the preceding stuff. There's also not much wiggling room, since Labour Unions is tethered in place by Biology and Social Services by Medicine (although I might make the latter in indirect link if there's a good reason). I'm not committed to Social Services leading into Mass Market, but then the tech that replaces it should. If Social Services stays in place the new tech needs to lead into Civil Rights. Also, Representation and Nationalism might swap places but that would leave Nationalism without direct links (not willing to disconnect Representation and Labour Unions).
- I merged Photography into Film, both photographs and moving pictures use the same underlying technology with different applications, and there's not enough things for these two similar things to enable. This removes the Film -> Marketing link, but I think that marketing using moving pictures really only becomes relevant with TV marketing/advertisement and that's where those two strands merge again. Instead, Film links Radio. Besides the cultural implications this is also evocative of how nuclear radiation was discovered.
- Tentatively renamed Plastics to the broader name Synthetics, to make the connection to Explosives stronger.

Renamed the series of "X Working" techs to the tools/innovations/practices that enables them:
- Leather Working -> Tanning
- Copper Working -> Smelting
- Bronze Working -> Alloys
- Iron Working -> Bloomery
- Steel Working -> Steel (I feel it just had that name to fit the pattern)

Other (tentative) renames:
- I think Superconductors makes sense in the place of Particle Physics
- tried Arithmetics and Geometry instead of Numbers and Mathematics. I think the former works across the board (and actually just "numbers" is a bit late in that position). My initial objection to Geometry was the Currency link, but honestly I might just swallow that little inconsistency.
- Navigation -> Astrolabe. Pretty much in favor of that one. The tool or something similar is universal and important enough to describe this tech, and pretty much fits the time period and what it enables. Also Astrolabe -> Compass fits much better now.
- Oratory -> Tradition. The name feels a bit primitive for its time period but the tech is a bit more universal this way.
- The Wheel -> Leverage: as a generic word for very early machinery / tools to transfer force. This makes the links to all following techs more obvious, and makes it more believable for say Amerindian civs to research this tech as they are forced to (no Inca without roads or construction). The only thing actually requiring wheels with this techs are chariots, and they are kept from the new world due to lack of horses.

Miscellaneous:
- actually considering to keep the Leather -> Copper (or Tanning -> Smelting) link after all now. I think that you could draw a line between both professions both in the way of the actual processes (e.g. how tanning requires using additional substances) and their social developments (tanning was probably the first "industry" in the sense that separate parts of town were created to carry it out).
- flipped a link to have Philosophy -> Ethics instead of Hygiene -> Scholarship. That link worked when it was still called Medicine, but the former was also always sensible and now seems stronger to me.
- still not sure if Hygiene is the best word or if there is another word for the early medical profession.

Aside from the two empty spots in the industrial era I feel very much finished now. The modern era mostly works as it is, and slight weaknesses aren't worth the cost of changing things. The future era might leave room for improvement but since nothing depends on it and most games never reach it we can deal with that later.

Of course there's still a lot to discuss so it's not like I'm saying this to set this in stone as a final version.

Another open question are tech links and the AND/OR question. I think for techs with only two prereqs I will leave it as AND for the most part. OR might make sense in some cases (especially early techs, it seems), but I want to discover those individually. In the case of three prereqs, A and (B or C) should be more common than A and B and C. After everything is in place I'll give indirect links a more detailed look and then figure out how they're all combined.

 

[Leoreth]

Just thinking about it, one good tech for the industrial era could be Macroeconomics, enabling Central Planning.

 

[Wessel V1]

Maybe Consumerism can be considered as defining term instead of Mass Market? I think a link between Consumerism and Electronics makes sense as well. Maybe the link could replace Pharmaceuticals, which to me makes a lot of sense to put near Synthetics. Even if it follows directly from Explosives it would't be that weird. I think Explosives can be seen as an important reason why modern battles take so many civilian victims compared to military victims. This leading to Pharmaceuticals (in the form of Antibiotics for example) makes sense to me.

 

[Leoreth]

I had Consumerism in mind for the Mass Market tech as well ... it seems to be broadly the same phenomenon. Are you suggesting to move it up one row to cut off Pharmaceuticals and link Electronics?

That could work, but still wouldn't help the weird position of Pharmaceuticals. I agree that a synthetics link makes sense but I don't know how to make that happen without getting in the way of other things that also cannot move.

 

[Wessel V1]

That was indeed the suggestion. I didn't get an idea to implement it though, the structure is indeed pretty complicated to change. Perhaps an algorithm could do the job here? I suppose it's not that hard to write, and though the number of possibilities is huge the amount of working results may very well be large as well. Perhaps some mathematician may be interested in doing this?

 

[Leoreth]

I also thought about that ... the algorithm is probably easy enough, manually defining all the constraints is not.

 

[citis]

The link again for convenience.
- this leaves the two last techs in the bottom row free, and I'm not entirely sure what to put there. The industrial era feels somewhat lacking in cultural and economic techs, but I have no ideas what would connect to the preceding stuff. There's also not much wiggling room, since Labour Unions is tethered in place by Biology and Social Services by Medicine (although I might make the latter in indirect link if there's a good reason). I'm not committed to Social Services leading into Mass Market, but then the tech that replaces it should. If Social Services stays in place the new tech needs to lead into Civil Rights. Also, Representation and Nationalism might swap places but that would leave Nationalism without direct links (not willing to disconnect Representation and Labour Unions).

- still not sure if Hygiene is the best word or if there is another word for the early medical profession.

The gap in industrial era was created by ommiting photography and telephone.
I have two techs to propose: Microbiology (again) and Agronomy/Fertiliser as an agricultural revolution tech. You can consider that medicine/agronomy are the same tech:drugs/vitamines/medication and generally substances that affect biological systems with both health and agriculture applications. In this case you have to ommit pharmaceuticals.

I would like to see macroeconomics at the same coloumn with globalisation. The second one refers to political globalisation, while the first to economic.

Herbalism has been proposed as renaming of ancient medicine. However, this name doesn't include surgery which was performed from ancient times.
Hygienics is part of plumbics/hydraulics in my opinion.

Alvin can be put in the metal-working raw if you want to avoid steel. Maybe it better fits before bloomery.
Maybe there should not be both casting and alloys.

Should there be so many social techs in industrial era? There already 4, and with the gaps there are 6. 3 social techs at most in last row seems right.

 

[Leoreth]

The tech is supposed to enable Baths which makes no sense with Herbalism.

 

[BenZL43]

If it enable bath, how about Sanitation?

Actually, in this East part of the world, our ancestors used to put leaves and flowers into the water and bath in it. (Herbal Bath)
That's some kind of the earliest attempt in medication so perhaps it's not so wrong either.
It is well acknowledged in medical world that herbal bath can lower your blood pressure, make you feel more relaxed and heal post-workout sores but not recommended for those who have any kind of heart problem.