HR Tech Tree Plausibility
- Thread starter Leoreth
- Start date
I think rather than moving rifling back it should be moved one colum forward into the second colum of the industrial age. While rifling was used before 1850 in some occasions, it only gaoned widespread use after 1850. I propose to instead put a techonolgy called either "flintlock" or something like "linear tactics" at the postion where rifling currently is. It could enable the current Rifleman, renamed to "Fusilier" and with slightly changed graphics, similar to the english Redcoat. Rifling on the other hand would be avaiable around 1860, also representing other military innovations of the time like benchloading. It could give access to Infantry, possibly with slightly changed Graphics and renamed to "Rifleman". On the other hand, around 1940, a new type of Infantry (modern Infantry) could be avaiable. I believe this setup eould be historical more accurate. Generally, the units in this mod should be reworked, and now with the rework of the tech tree it might be the perfect time to do it.
That's a good point, now that Sanitation is free it could be used at this point of the tree.
I'm currently planning in that direction.
You're right, actually a redesign of the unit roster is part of the purpose of this change. Civ is somewhat inconsistent in what it considered a Rifleman, and includes typical Musket units such as Redcoats and Minutemen, which is supported by its position in the BtS tech tree.
As you suggest, I could imagine an alternate gunpowder line of either Arquebusier -> Musketman -> Rifleman -> Infantry or Musketman -> Line Infantry -> Rifleman -> Infantry.
The question is how to enable this in the tech tree. Now that I think of it, Rifling is maybe too specific for a tech, and the same is true for Flintlock. I think with a Rifling that comes later in the tech tree, it makes sense to just view it as part of Ballistics. In that case, we can bring back Replaceable Parts as something that covers Flintlock.
We're getting close to a final version I think (see here). Recent changes:
- removed Nationhood, too much overlap with Statecraft and Nationalism
- moved Heritage one left to directly link Literature
- Heritage now leads to Horticulture. I retooled that tech to not only refer to cash crops, but also to landscaping and gardening, something that was popular in Europe, Persia, India and China at that time scale. Link to Constitution is weak, but will add a direct link to Hydraulics that also anchors that tech better into the tree. Also considering adding an Estate building here to serve as the base for the Fazenda and Hacienda UBs (maybe also Mausoleum).
- bottom line in the Industrial era now is Nationalism -> Civil Society -> Social Services
- the line above it is Representation -> Labour Unions -> Macroeconomics
- I actually arrived at Civil Society working from the term Öffentlichkeit in German, which might be translated as public sphere, but those are awkward names for techs. The concept is the idea of a nation/state being an area of participation for different social classes, both on a cultural and a political level. Representation and Nationalism prereqs should be obvious from that perspective. Social Services is basically the idea that problems in civil society should be solved by the state. Another possible link is to Film (emergence of popular culture).
- Macroeconomics includes both Marxian economics and Keynesianism (as well as Vienna and Chicago school stuff I guess), and as discussed is a good place to put Central Planning (and a potential Central Bank national wonder). The link to Mass Market is pretty clear, not sure if there is anything else it could connect to. Second prereq is Corporation way back in the tree.
- Medicine remains an indirect link to Social Services.
- returned Rifling to Replaceable Parts per the above discussion. I think this tree works regardless of whether an additional unit tier is inserted into the period.
- Pharmaceuticals are still kind of the problem child of the modern era. It's not just that it interrupts the flow of the strand it's on and cannot fit where its more natural prereqs lie, in general I cannot think of anything it would enable. Leaving it in for the moment, but mostly because I also cannot think of anything to take its place.
- removed Nationhood, too much overlap with Statecraft and Nationalism
- moved Heritage one left to directly link Literature
- Heritage now leads to Horticulture. I retooled that tech to not only refer to cash crops, but also to landscaping and gardening, something that was popular in Europe, Persia, India and China at that time scale. Link to Constitution is weak, but will add a direct link to Hydraulics that also anchors that tech better into the tree. Also considering adding an Estate building here to serve as the base for the Fazenda and Hacienda UBs (maybe also Mausoleum).
- bottom line in the Industrial era now is Nationalism -> Civil Society -> Social Services
- the line above it is Representation -> Labour Unions -> Macroeconomics
- I actually arrived at Civil Society working from the term Öffentlichkeit in German, which might be translated as public sphere, but those are awkward names for techs. The concept is the idea of a nation/state being an area of participation for different social classes, both on a cultural and a political level. Representation and Nationalism prereqs should be obvious from that perspective. Social Services is basically the idea that problems in civil society should be solved by the state. Another possible link is to Film (emergence of popular culture).
- Macroeconomics includes both Marxian economics and Keynesianism (as well as Vienna and Chicago school stuff I guess), and as discussed is a good place to put Central Planning (and a potential Central Bank national wonder). The link to Mass Market is pretty clear, not sure if there is anything else it could connect to. Second prereq is Corporation way back in the tree.
- Medicine remains an indirect link to Social Services.
- returned Rifling to Replaceable Parts per the above discussion. I think this tree works regardless of whether an additional unit tier is inserted into the period.
- Pharmaceuticals are still kind of the problem child of the modern era. It's not just that it interrupts the flow of the strand it's on and cannot fit where its more natural prereqs lie, in general I cannot think of anything it would enable. Leaving it in for the moment, but mostly because I also cannot think of anything to take its place.
Wessel V1
Emperor
Perhaps something related to youth culture could fill the gap between Mass Market, Civil Rights and Ecology. Though it's a very generic term, Lifestyle may be a fitting term, though it obviously has ties to other techs as well.
Publicola
King
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2014
- Messages
- 760
Looks good so far, though I have a few questions:
- what is the meaning of the techs on line 17 and below? Are those basically "one of the techs in the above column is required for this future tech", or something else entirely? I've been following this discussion thread, but I must have missed that explanation.
- what does the 'Astrolabe' tech do? It doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for anything that follows it -- is it required for any future techs down the line?
- I feel like 'Ethics' really should connect in some way to 'Warrior Code'? That's basically a generalized term for what in Europe manifested as chivalry, right? But at least in Europe it was the development of classical and Christian ethics that was the primary motivating factor for that new sense of 'how to be a moral soldier', and the similar process led to other 'warrior codes' around the word
- is the 'Warrior Code' tech required for anything else down the line? It doesn't seem to have an arrow after it.
I'll probably have more questions after I play a few games with it, but that's all for now.
- what is the meaning of the techs on line 17 and below? Are those basically "one of the techs in the above column is required for this future tech", or something else entirely? I've been following this discussion thread, but I must have missed that explanation.
- what does the 'Astrolabe' tech do? It doesn't seem to be a prerequisite for anything that follows it -- is it required for any future techs down the line?
- I feel like 'Ethics' really should connect in some way to 'Warrior Code'? That's basically a generalized term for what in Europe manifested as chivalry, right? But at least in Europe it was the development of classical and Christian ethics that was the primary motivating factor for that new sense of 'how to be a moral soldier', and the similar process led to other 'warrior codes' around the word
- is the 'Warrior Code' tech required for anything else down the line? It doesn't seem to have an arrow after it.
I'll probably have more questions after I play a few games with it, but that's all for now.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Kind of worked the other way around. Central Planning started pre-Great Depression, Macroeconomics post. Keynes's work is often interpreted as the economic-liberal intellectual response to central planning.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
So should this be called "Estates"? Makes more sense with regard to Constitution.
Apart from this, I don't have anything obviously better to suggest at the moment. I think you have almost reached a locally optimal version of the tree.
Another thing I have noticed: could Charter be renamed Exploration? I think it still fits the position and purpose and is a bit more universal.
This helped me to avoid some sort of overfitting where I leave out a good idea entirely in my attempts to make something else work. Now in conclusion everything that was taken out found a place elsewhere or is covered by other new techs.
The tech is also required for Compass further down the tree.
(In HR it leads to Dogma which is the counterpart to Clergy in this tree, but I don't find that requirement very compelling.)
No, those are not part of the tech tree at all. It's a mental note for me that these are the techs from the base tree I have completely removed from this column, including techs of the same name whose position is so different that they're a complete reimagining. So everything that wasn't just renamed or moved one row/column.
This helped me to avoid some sort of overfitting where I leave out a good idea entirely in my attempts to make something else work. Now in conclusion everything that was taken out found a place elsewhere or is covered by other new techs.
It's basically the most advanced naval tech of the classical era ... it's sort of a dead end because the early idea of a completely separate naval line stops making sense after a while. The BtS tree has a similar phenomenon. In HR, the tech's counterpart enables Lighthouse, Great Lighthouse and Pirates (an early Privateer variant). I think I will do the same with buildings and put the strongest early ship here.
The tech is also required for Compass further down the tree.
That's a good idea, and Ethics currently lacks a second link.
I couldn't think of anything really. Seems to work out as a dead end tech.
(In HR it leads to Dogma which is the counterpart to Clergy in this tree, but I don't find that requirement very compelling.)
Yeah, me too. Will take a while to get this into the game in a way that is representative still.
Sure, as usual a tech is very broad strokes in concept. I'd argue that socialist economics was very macro oriented, even though it does not really conform to the historical development of that term in classical economics. I'm just trying to squeeze both in in some sort of catch-all, it's the best I've got.
Hm, I'm trying to avoid techs with the same name of what they enable.
Local optimum is a good way to put it. I feel I can't move anything without making it worse, and anything better would likely require to start again from scratch.
AbsintheRed
Deity
Don't really have anything to add, just wanted to say:
I'm really liking where this tech tree is going
While the one in HR also has some really nice improvements on it, this looks much better to me.
(even without taking into account the different needs because of the doctor - statesmen line in the two mods)
I'm really liking where this tech tree is going
While the one in HR also has some really nice improvements on it, this looks much better to me.
(even without taking into account the different needs because of the doctor - statesmen line in the two mods)
Urbanism is probably the more general name, but that kind of misses the social component of a wealthy middle class of craftsmen and traders emerging in between the usual aristocracy/commoners divide. I don't know if there's a better word that also maps to Asian societies.
I'd never have gotten anything done without using Xyth's tree as a base ... and part of challenge is to have every tech be worth researching, which I haven't done yet, so we'll see. But I'm also very happy with it so far.
You'll also need to send some time doing crosslinks to ensure that there are no 'fast paths' through the eras. Best way to do this is to have the tree in a brand new game, select each tech at the start of a new era, compare the number of steps needed to research it and see which techs are not needed to reach it. How strict on this you want to be is up to you, but I like to make it so that you can't reach a new era without having researched the majority of the previous era and all the techs from two eras ago.
Are you planning to go all AND requirements like I did, or keep OR requirements too?
I'll be interested to see how your adaption turns out in the end. The Medieval and Renaissance sections of my tree need some reworking, so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for ideas
I have been doing exactly that in HR for a while just to get a feel for how restrictive it turns out to be. People have previously voiced some concern that your tighter web of requirements might end up too constraining. I'm not too worried, I'm not a fan of extreme beelining anyway, and with more techs overall there will still be enough to research. It's still an open question to me, because RFC also has stuff like "be first to discover" tech goals that are kind of designed to force you off the standard path and leave techs you would usually research earlier out. Obviously that should still be possible, because it creates some interesting challenges and makes those games feel more unique, so I can't be too restrictive. Still, a general principle that you should not be able to advance say three columns ahead of your last incomplete column makes sense and will probably not impact those kinds of games.
Another open question I'm still evading for the moment. For most techs with only two requirements, only AND works or the tree becomes too open. If three prereqs exist, an A and (B or C) configuration might be feasible, and could serve to make the tree slightly less constraining for my requirements above. In some cases A or B might also be okay, but they should be the exception or only occur early in the tree, where having alternate paths is more important in my opinion.
I'll probably implement the tree into the game with AND only initially, just to keep things simple and have something to work with, and then gradually loosen it where possible on a case by case basis.
An aesthetic/interface problem about introducing OR prereqs is that they need to be distinguished in the advisor somehow. I don't really want to go back to the BtS idea of using arrows for OR because that defeats the entire purpose of this arrangement with predominantly AND. Maybe I can work with color in some way.
Sure, borrow what you can. I'll continue to share ingame pictures as soon as I have them, that should make things easier to grasp.I'll be interested to see how your adaption turns out in the end. The Medieval and Renaissance sections of my tree need some reworking, so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread for ideas
Then you will have two buildings in the same era that use the same principle and have the same effect. Moreover, baths may require aqueducts. You need flawing water for a working bath. And in this case, the tech doesn't represent ancient medicine.
Herbalism is better given the requirement branch it belongs to, that includes plantations and agriculture. You could add a more unique effect like "reveals tea, coffee, banana, sugar" or "+1 health from tea, coffee, sugar".
If you keep it that way, then it effectively isn't an ancient medicine tech anymore.
Also, I can't find the quote now, but it refers to cultural movements of industrial era. Maybe have a tech like Modernism/Abstract Art that is a child of photography or merged with it. It represents that after the invention of photography, painting emanicipated from actual representation and gave birth to a movement of abstract arts. Maybe it enables:
gallery:+1
, +3 culture, +1 artist slot (theatre's number is subtracted by 1)Supplying cities with fresh water is a different purpose than enabling personal hygiene. And building effects can be chosen to reflect that.
Panopticon
Utilitarian
Hey Leoreth, if you rename Charter to Exploration, then you could rename Bourgeoisie to Charter or Companies. I know Corporation is a few columns ahead, though.
I assume Machinery -> Compass? Maybe I forget a post about this. Judiciary -> Patronage could work as well as Judiciary -> Guilds. However, I don't understand why Artisanry -> Civil Service. If anything, Artisanry -> Machinery.
If Horticulture represents estates and the exploitation of land, then Horticulture -> Geology.
I also feel that Firearms -> Urban Planning, because planning was often motivated by fortification.
Mass Movements might be a more precise name for Civil Society, though perhaps overlapping with Labour Unions. I'm sure some civic could go here.
I assume Machinery -> Compass? Maybe I forget a post about this. Judiciary -> Patronage could work as well as Judiciary -> Guilds. However, I don't understand why Artisanry -> Civil Service. If anything, Artisanry -> Machinery.
If Horticulture represents estates and the exploitation of land, then Horticulture -> Geology.
I also feel that Firearms -> Urban Planning, because planning was often motivated by fortification.
Mass Movements might be a more precise name for Civil Society, though perhaps overlapping with Labour Unions. I'm sure some civic could go here.
You mean Charter as in town charters?
I'd rather do Machinery -> Printing. Compasses don't require all that many mechanical parts if you go by the simplest construction.
Would it? In any case, it's true that Judiciary could use a second link.
You caught me, the Architecture -> Alchemy and Artisanry -> Civil Service links were empty when I was done with those two columns, so I just sneakily filled them with the intention of fixing this later. Thanks for reminding me. And you're right, Artisanry -> Machinery makes a lot of sense ... will think about that area again and try to find a better configuration.
Interesting, hadn't considered that.
Good idea, Urban Planning needs a second prereq and I have already considered giving it a defensive building.
That's the idea!
