I have shifted from athiest to agnostic

[Moony]

Originally posted by Pikachu
It's not that odd, Moony. If you substitute God with good in the traditional test, you get very close to mine. And God is good, if you didn't know.

But substituting God with good is too general. Cornchips, for instance, are good. But I don't worship cornch-wait, bad example. You get my point. There is a huge difference between believing the Bible teaches good morals and believing that there is a god and Jesus is the Lord and such. Unless, of course, you're one of those individuals who believe morality and religion are inseparable.

 

[Pikachu]

It is interesting how desperate atheists are to find faults with religion. I almost get the impression that they are atheists as a protest against religion, not because they don't believe in God.

Now I have to comment a lot of posts:

Originally posted by Stapel

Do you really think people are able to remember significant things after 35 years? Do you realize modern society and its law systems don't think so? A 35 year old memory, significant or not, is pretty useless in a courtroom. 35 years may seem short on 2000 years, but it is quite long for a memory.

I think you underestimate the capability of the human brain. My grandparents can remember things that happened more than 50 years ago quite accurate. I have no reason to doubt that their stories are close to true.

The apostles discussed the life of Jesus all the time, and because so few people could write those days, people were very good at memorizing things too. They should be able to remember some significant events for 35 years. Of cause some details has been forgotten before the gospels was written, but in general I think they are a good source of what Jesus said and did.

Originally posted by floppa21
Take floppa's test.
1) Did you take Pikachu's test?
2) Did you answer his three questions affirmatively?
3) Did you believe his end result?

If the answers to these three questions is yes, you're a moron.

Yes, I passed the test. No I am officially a moron. I would like to know why I deserve this honor?

Originally posted by floppa21

I think a majority of Christians have the IQ of a corn chip (to stay on topic and with previous posts)...

Was Jesus the first fascist? No free thinking, do not question, just obey. Make sure to flatter me or I will torture you in Hell for eternity (which by the way I made just for you because I love you). Intelligence is NOT a virtue. Be a sheep. Follow blindly. Joy.

I think you have the IQ of an average Christian. You have seriously misunderstood the Bible. Have you read it? Most of the bible is about why people should acquire knowledge and understanding the world they live in. The bible does indeed encourage people to think for them selves and not blindly trust authorities.

Originally posted by floppa21

It may help you be the better man, and to have strength and conviction, but it also helps with planes being flown into World Trade Centers, buses being blown up on a daily basis, etc.

Terrorism has nothing to do with Christianity, and I doubt it has much to do with Islam. Terrorism could be better explained by some crazy people's need for revenge.

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Why is it so hard for a religous person to accept that the uiverse has always existed. If you believe God always existedm where is thebig leap of logic?

I don't think this question is relevant. Science suggests that the universe was created about 13 billion years ago with a big bang. As far as I can see, nothing indicates that the universe has always existed.

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Don't give me the who"it need creation" bull***. I mean, if the universe neaded to be created, then God must have needed to be created. Who created God?

And that's the difference. God has always been here, so he has not been created. If the universe had always been here it would not have been created, but everything suggests that the universe has not been here forever.

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Why doesn't God talk to anyone anymore. It seems there we a lot of prophets back then...Not one now. Seems funny to me.

Jesus was the perfect prophet, so we don't need any new ones. But I think God still talks to some people. They just don't tell it to you, or if they do, you don't believe them.

Originally posted by Xeven the God

None of the "magical God stuff" happens anymore...Again, where the f*** is he?

Magical God stuff still happens all the time. You just don't believe people when they tell you about it. You just hang on to your faith: there must be a logical explanation...

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Why does no one read the book in its entirety? There is some pretty bad sh** in there that you choose to ignore. Like your meat is supposed to be well done. Eating red meat is a Sin. You aren't supposed to eat lobster, crab of oysters. Doing so is a Sin. Being gay isn't a Sin...Have non-reproductive sex is, though.

Why should anyone need to read the whole bible? The bible is huge! Christianity is for everybody. You don't need to study for years to understand it. Reading one of the gospels is enough. It is done in one afternoon. Mark is a good start; it's the shortest gospel.

The bible is just a book written by some people who knew something about God. A lot of what is written in the Old Testament is not valid anymore. There is a reason for every rule. As the world changes, the reasons for some rules disappear. Then the rules themselves become meaningless and should be abandoned. Jesus told us this. He used most of his time to rebel against the religious elite of his time because they took the scriptures too literally. The rules are there to serve the people, not the other way around.

Originally posted by Xeven the God

Again you're right Gothmog. It's too easy to group people and honestly, it's all I am shown. Blame media, blame whatever... I guess the hard part is finding the people you mentioned.

What you are searching for you will get. You meet good Christians every day. Most Christians don't tell that they are Christians to everybody all the time. Ask people you consider wise if they are Christians, and you will find that many of them are. Christians are like everybody else. Jerks are just as common among Christians as everywhere else.

Originally posted by Gothmog

Heck, seems to me that even charity is mostly done to make one feel good about ones self. Even for those whe follow Matthew 6:2-3 (and I have never met any of those either):
Therefore when thou doest thine alms,
do not sound a trumpet before thee,
as the hypocrites do in the synagogues
and in the streets, that they may have
glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
they have their reward.
But when thou doest alms,
let not thy left hand know
what thy right hand doeth.

Sure you have met them, but you don't know about all the good things they have done, because they don't talk big about it.

Originally posted by Moony

But substituting God with good is too general. Cornchips, for instance, are good. But I don't worship cornch-wait, bad example. You get my point. There is a huge difference between believing the Bible teaches good morals and believing that there is a god and Jesus is the Lord and such. Unless, of course, you're one of those individuals who believe morality and religion are inseparable.

Yes there is a difference. My Christianity test is something I have made up my self. It is not a divine definition of a Christian. I believe that faith is overrated. What we believe is just a product of our experiences and what we think is most likely. What we believe is mostly a matter of definition and don't tell if we are good or evil. It doesn't make any difference what we believe, because it doesn't directly affect others. What we say and do is what matters. Faith is just a tool to help us act good, but we don't necessarily need faith to act good. I believe that religion is morality. In my opinion you can be a Christian without believing in God. With this kind of thinking, there is no fundamental difference between Christians and Atheists or Agnostics. Why do we need to create any conflict?

Phew, this was an incredibly long post! Did anybody care to read all this?

 

[Stapel]

Originally posted by Pikachu
It is interesting how desperate atheists are to find faults with religion. I almost get the impression that they are atheists as a protest against religion, not because they don't believe in God.

To me it is so obvious there is no god, that I find it very interesting (and sometimes annoying) so many people think there is one. I can't help questioning people who do believe in a god. People who do believe in God, have no evidence, but they have faith. It is my thought that if one is able to have faith in a good God/religion, one is also able to have faith in an aggresive/bad religion. Having faith sometimes makes people better persons, but unfortunately history and our nowadays world is full of bad things, caused by faithful people, in the name of their god/religion.
Maybe you think christianity preaches only good, but fact is that many people act horribly in the name of God. These people may not be true christians in your view, but they think they are.
Apart from that, I think it is pretty pathatic if one needs a god to be a good man/woman!

I think you underestimate the capability of the human brain. My grandparents can remember things that happened more than 50 years ago quite accurate. I have no reason to doubt that their stories are close to true.

The apostles discussed the life of Jesus all the time, and because so few people could write those days, people were very good at memorizing things too. They should be able to remember some significant events for 35 years. Of cause some details has been forgotten before the gospels was written, but in general I think they are a good source of what Jesus said and did.

Maybe I did not write down sufficiently, what my points is. Of course a human brain is capable of remembering things. I do not underestimate it. But it is a simple fact that memories can be selective and that memories can make things up. Have you never argued with someone about how things you both whitnessed really happened? These are very very very common things people can disagree on! Even if they are very significant and happened only a few months ago!

If I whitness a man and his acts, life and death today, and I trulely think this man is the son of God, and I decide to write about him and his acts over 35 years (still being convinced he was the son of God): It is very very likely I will exaggerate him and his acts!
That makes perfects sense, doesn't it?

A last remark: Being 100% sure there is no god, it is very easy for me to analyze the bible from a purely historical view. I do understand this can be quite hard for someone who has faith in God, Christ and the Bible. But if you try, you might be able to understand my view on this topic!

 

[Moony]

Originally posted by Pikachu
It is interesting how desperate atheists are to find faults with religion. I almost get the impression that they are atheists as a protest against religion, not because they don't believe in God.

Perhaps you only think it interesting because you can only see your point of view. This is an Off Topic discussion board, the topic is atheism switched to agnostic [but it's pretty much evolved to a typical religious debate], so of course we are going to discuss it. From my experience, the only way to truly fight such a battle is by pointing out the flaws from within the religion, because if I discussed something plainly as "man came from apes by evolution" the other party will automatically think "man was created by God." If you find faults, then it makes the other party start thinking outside of what has been drilled in their heads.

Originally posted by Pikachu
The bible does indeed encourage people to think for them selves and not blindly trust authorities.

I'd really like to know where it says that. I'm not being snotty by saying that, I'm truly curious. I read the Bible from cover to cover and I never got that impression. Where did my eyes/my boredom grow too tired to see that?

Originally posted by Pikachu
Why should anyone need to read the whole bible? The bible is huge! Christianity is for everybody. You don't need to study for years to understand it. Reading one of the gospels is enough. It is done in one afternoon. Mark is a good start; it's the shortest gospel.

Wow, just wow. If no one had ever been exposed to Christianiy or even religion before, you believe that reading the shortest gospel will be enough to become a Christian? That just blows my mind, but then again, you'll see later, that you and I do not even see eye-to-eye on what Christianity is. What if you didn't read of the Ten Commandments? Or who Jesus even was?By saying that you are a Christian without even reading your holy book, you have no clue what you are agreeing yourself to.

Originally posted by Pikachu
Yes there is a difference. My Christianity test is something I have made up my self.

Congratulations, you've just make up your own demonination of Christianity.

Originally posted by Pikachu
I believe that religion is morality. In my opinion you can be a Christian without believing in God. With this kind of thinking, there is no fundamental difference between Christians and Atheists or Agnostics. Why do we need to create any conflict?

This is where we do not see eye-to-eye. I have friends, whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Wiccan, Atheist, or Agnostic, who all have good morals. So how could morality be religion if those who believe religion is an opiate of the masses and yet they have good morals? In my opinion, considering Christianity is a monotheism, that you have to believe in God to be a Christian. Either I'm not reading this right, or there is something really screwed up with how you see things.From what I understand, you believe a Christian is, by your definition, a good person with good morals, thus everyone is a Christian? A good person is a good person, religion has nothing to do with it.

I think I swallowed a poisonous spider, so I'm going to go now..

-Forever-
Moony

 

[Stapel]

Yes, I did read it all Pikachu!

One more comment:

Terrorism has nothing to do with Christianity, and I doubt it has much to do with Islam. Terrorism could be better explained by some crazy people's need for revenge.

Terrorism, or at least some of the terrorism we encounter in our present world, comes from faith.

Terrorists kill innocent people in the name of some god! Be it Allah or God, is not important. These people seem to have blind faith in their god and their faith tells them to kill innocent people!

The bible has an excellent story on blind faith and killing an innocent child: genesis 22! It simply sais that you should kill your son when God demands you to do so. The fact that God tells Abraham not to kill his son at he end is not important. The fact that he was willing to kill him is!

A terrorist blowing up himself in a bus simply has the same! Somewhere in his head is a voice (he thinks it is God) telling him he should kill those innocent people in that bus.

My point: It is faith that causes people to believe in christ, but it is the same faith that causes people to believe in some seriously dangerous terrorism bull****! It is also the same faith that causes people to discriminate homosexuals, unmarried mothers and coloured people.
You may find that 'not-christian-like', but fact is that right now, here and today people do use faith and christianity in this way!

 

[Gothmog]

“I think you underestimate the capability of the human brain. My grandparents can remember things that happened more than 50 years ago quite accurate. I have no reason to doubt that their stories are close to true.”

You should go ask a police officer about how many different stories they get from “eye witnesses” about even a simple event moments after they happen. Or look at studies in cognitive science text about this issue. As subjective beings the question of what is accurate/true is an interesting one.

“If the universe had always been here it would not have been created, but everything suggests that the universe has not been here forever.”

What suggests that? The evidence suggests that there was a ‘big bang’ 13 odd billion years ago, I don’t know of any evidence suggesting anything about what was before that.

“Sure you have met them, but you don't know about all the good things they have done, because they don't talk big about it.”

I should have been more specific here and said I don’t personally know any of them. I know many good people but the question I was discussing with floppa21 was motive. What motivates people to do the things they do, a very deep question related to why Christianity adopted the concept of heaven and hell.

“It doesn't make any difference what we believe, because it doesn't directly affect others.”

Wrong, for example: The pope and his followers believe that birth control is a sin. This IMO ignorant position contributes much to the problems we are presently facing in trying to give appropriate aid to the African continent in terms of population, disease, and even educating women.

 

[floppa21]

Originally posted by Pikachu
"It is interesting how desperate atheists are to find faults with religion. I almost get the impression that they are atheists as a protest against religion, not because they don't believe in God. "

I am in protest against organized religion and I would not say I am atheist. Just me personally.

"Yes, I passed the test. No I am officially a moron. I would like to know why I deserve this honor?"

That test was ridiculously lame and you know it.

"I think you have the IQ of an average Christian. You have seriously misunderstood the Bible. Have you read it? Most of the bible is about why people should acquire knowledge and understanding the world they live in. The bible does indeed encourage people to think for them selves and not blindly trust authorities. "

Like Moony before me, I missed those parts. NOWHERE in the Bible is Intelligence praised or esteemed.

"Terrorism has nothing to do with Christianity, and I doubt it has much to do with Islam. Terrorism could be better explained by some crazy people's need for revenge. "

It has plenty to do with religion (I don't think I specified any particular religion) when they are killing in the name of God or Allah or whatnot. Sure the people are nuts, but they are RELIGOUS nuts. If they were not religous, I think maybe they wouldn't be killing people? Just maybe.

"Jesus was the perfect prophet, so we don't need any new ones. But I think God still talks to some people. They just don't tell it to you, or if they do, you don't believe them."

Same with those alien abductees right? We just don't believe them. Talking about miracles here that are Old Testament style. God doesn't have that kind of energy any longer.

"Magical God stuff still happens all the time. You just don't believe people when they tell you about it. You just hang on to your faith: there must be a logical explanation..."

I was in a car accident 12 years ago when I was 16. Broke my back in two places, broke my pelvis in two places. Today I have some scars but I can walk and everything functions as it should. God was with me? No. I got lucky. If I was religous, of course I'd say God saved my a$$ that day. What other explanation could there be? Coincidence and luck go out the window for religous people if it is postive. It's always God's will. Magical stuff happens at the circus. That's it.

"The bible is just a book written by some people who knew something about God. A lot of what is written in the Old Testament is not valid anymore. There is a reason for every rule. As the world changes, the reasons for some rules disappear. Then the rules themselves become meaningless and should be abandoned. Jesus told us this. He used most of his time to rebel against the religious elite of his time because they took the scriptures too literally. The rules are there to serve the people, not the other way around."

Of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families ... and they shall be your possession.--Lev.25:45

He that believeth not shall be damned.--Mark 16:16

But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.--Dt.20:16-17

And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.--1 Kg.11:3

Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: ... the bat.--Dt.14:11, 18

He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.--Joshua 24:19

So these verses which are in the Bible we just toss out the window because 'times they is a changin'? Gotcha.

"Yes there is a difference. My Christianity test is something I have made up my self. It is not a divine definition of a Christian. I believe that faith is overrated. What we believe is just a product of our experiences and what we think is most likely. What we believe is mostly a matter of definition and don't tell if we are good or evil. It doesn't make any difference what we believe, because it doesn't directly affect others. What we say and do is what matters. Faith is just a tool to help us act good, but we don't necessarily need faith to act good. I believe that religion is morality. In my opinion you can be a Christian without believing in God. With this kind of thinking, there is no fundamental difference between Christians and Atheists or Agnostics. Why do we need to create any conflict?"

First off, how can you say faith is overrated? Without it you will burn in HELL for eternity. We do NOT need faith to act good as you said and which I agree with. Religion is NOT morality. Morality is morality. A christian who does not believe in GOD? I'll see you in Hell Pikachu. How the hell can you be a Christian and not believe in God? You are UNSAVED!!! You unclean sinner heathen scum! You can have Christian values and morals (some of which are good to have) but if you don't believe in God, you are not a Christian. And if you do not speak in tongues, you are not a Pentecostal and if you have not been baptized, you are not a Baptist or somesuch... Well you said "in my opinion" so fine. Religion is a load of crap. You don't need it to be a good person and get your just reward in the Afterlife. If God truly cares about what denomination you belong to or if you call Him Allah, God, or Jimmy, well then, I got something for Him.

 

[floppa21]

Since we are supposed to pick and choose the parts we like in the Bible and since Christianity is such an 'eager to please' religion, here's my version of Christianity.

Do what you like. If you harm others intentionally, expect the same if not worse. Live and let live or above will apply. Do NOT turn the other cheek. If someone smites you, you smite them back harder. TWICE! If a person steals from you, you return the favor. TWICE. God helps those who help themselves afterall. Keep a mentality of "Don't f*** with me and I won't f*** with you" and you'll be fine. Amen.

I'm renting a small storefront in a strip mall and I'll be holding Bible studies every Wednesday night and Saturday night at 7:30. Feel free to stop by. BYOB.

 

[Pikachu]

I don't say that the gospels are 100% accurate. Like the rest of the bible, they are written by humans and therefore influenced by the author's personalities and the society they lived in. Something has probably been exaggerated, and important stuff has probably been left out, but the gospels are the best source we have. The authors were well qualified to write the gospels, and they did the best they could. I think that is good enough. What is written there is fairly close to the truth, but details in the gospels are not indisputable. If Jesus wanted to make a 100% correct bible, he would have written it himself. But then people would have to blindly trust everything he had written, and his attempt to make people think for themselves would have been totally wasted. Unfortunately the church managed to mess up that message anyway.

For those of you who fell asleep while reading in the Old Testament so you missed this point... A concentrated praise to wisdom and knowledge can be found in the Proverbs. That book is almost entirely about why you must acquire wisdom. But be warned the Old Testament is an endless source of misunderstandings.

If you read about Jesus, you will see that he preferred to tell people how they should think with his stories instead of giving them an exact answer, but when he did give exact answers, he always explained the reason. To me that is encouraging us to think for ourselves. You will also find that he used a lot of energy to criticize the religious elite and encouraged people not to trust them. One example: Mark 12:38-40: And in his teaching he said, Be on your watch against the scribes...

Then back to the endless comments on other posts:

Originally posted by Stapel

To me it is so obvious there is no god, that I find it very interesting (and sometimes annoying) so many people think there is one.

To me it is not obvious that there is no God. It is not obvious that there is one either. Nobody can be 100% sure in this question.

Originally posted by Moony

Wow, just wow. If no one had ever been exposed to Christianiy or even religion before, you believe that reading the shortest gospel will be enough to become a Christian? That just blows my mind, but then again, you'll see later, that you and I do not even see eye-to-eye on what Christianity is. What if you didn't read of the Ten Commandments? Or who Jesus even was?By saying that you are a Christian without even reading your holy book, you have no clue what you are agreeing yourself to.

Christianity is about Christ. The Old Testament is not important. You do know that Christians don't accept the old Jewish law, don't you? Why do we have to read about all kinds of obsolete stuff to understand Christianity? I admit you caught me on one mistake. Jesus does honor the 10 commands, so you need them too to understand the message.

Originally posted by Moony

This is where we do not see eye-to-eye. I have friends, whether they are Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Wiccan, Atheist, or Agnostic, who all have good morals. So how could morality be religion if those who believe religion is an opiate of the masses and yet they have good morals? In my opinion, considering Christianity is a monotheism, that you have to believe in God to be a Christian. Either I'm not reading this right, or there is something really screwed up with how you see things.From what I understand, you believe a Christian is, by your definition, a good person with good morals, thus everyone is a Christian? A good person is a good person, religion has nothing to do with it.

Finally somebody understood it! Jesus describes how to be a good person. I think that everybody who is a good person according to Jesus, is Christians. The secular moral of the modern world is practically identical to what we know about the moral Jesus preached, so there is not really much need for the religion anymore. Atheists, Agnostics and Christians! I believe we are all the same. There is no reason to make any war between us. I don't know enough about other religions, but I guess adherents of many other religions are good Christians too.

Originally posted by Gothmog

"If the universe had always been here it would not have been created, but everything suggests that the universe has not been here forever."

What suggests that? The evidence suggests that there was a 'big bang' 13 odd billion years ago, I don't know of any evidence suggesting anything about what was before that.

I might have misunderstood the big bang theology. I thought that nothing happened before the big bang, and that event created our universe. I may be wrong. Do you have a better theory?

Originally posted by Gothmog

"It doesn't make any difference what we believe, because it doesn't directly affect others."

Wrong, for example: The pope and his followers believe that birth control is a sin. This IMO ignorant position contributes much to the problems we are presently facing in trying to give appropriate aid to the African continent in terms of population, disease, and even educating women.

The Pope has his right to believe that birth control is a sin, and you have the right to disagree with him. What the Pope believes does not hurt anybody except those who agree with him. The bible doesn't even say that there should be a Pope.

Originally posted by floppa21
I am in protest against organized religion and I would not say I am atheist. Just me personally.

Thank you, that explains the impression I almost got.

Originally posted by floppa21

That test was ridiculously lame and you know it.

So answering a lame test is enough to be a moron. I think that is a little cheap, but maybe that's just me.

Originally posted by floppa21

It has plenty to do with religion (I don't think I specified any particular religion) when they are killing in the name of God or Allah or whatnot. Sure the people are nuts, but they are RELIGOUS nuts. If they were not religous, I think maybe they wouldn't be killing people? Just maybe.

Yes, just maybe. And maybe I and people like me would have become mass murderers if we were not religious, who knows? Terrorism is not exclusively a religious thing. Stalin did one of the best terrorism performances ever, and he was an Atheist. It is all about abuse of power. Some cover it up with highly questionable religious motives, but I think the true reason is much more complex.


"Of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families ... and they shall be your possession.--Lev.25:45"

When the Leviticus was written, the society was based on slavery. The bible did put some restrictions on slavery, so it was better than the alternative. Fortunately the world have changed since then, so nowadays the slavery laws are irrelevant.

"He that believeth not shall be damned.--Mark 16:16"

This one is supposed to be still valid, but it clearly conflicts with my theory.
Edit: I have now discovered that this quote might be false. Mark 16:9-20 is missing in the oldest versions of the gospel of Mark. Whoever added these lines, might had suspicious motives.

"But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth.--Dt.20:16-17"

Maybe those people were evil? At least they don't exist anymore, so the command is meaningless.

"And he had seven hundred wives, princesses, and three hundred concubines.--1 Kg.11:3"

This one tells that Salomon was wrong when he took hundreds of wives.

"Of all clean birds ye shall eat. But these are they of which ye shall not eat: ... the bat.--Dt.14:11, 18"

Jesus puts this law aside, because it was taken too seriously and distorted people from what really is important. "Not that which goes into the mouth makes a man unclean, but that which comes out of the mouth.-Mat 15:11"

"He is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.--Joshua 24:19"

Joshua exaggerated this a little, but Jesus corrected it.

Originally posted by floppa21

First off, how can you say faith is overrated? Without it you will burn in HELL for eternity. We do NOT need faith to act good as you said and which I agree with. Religion is NOT morality. Morality is morality. A christian who does not believe in GOD? I'll see you in Hell Pikachu. How the hell can you be a Christian and not believe in God? You are UNSAVED!!! You unclean sinner heathen scum!

Really? Well, I do believe in God, so I guess I could come to heaven anyway? I hope you will join me there.

Originally posted by floppa21

You can have Christian values and morals (some of which are good to have) but if you don't believe in God, you are not a Christian. And if you do not speak in tongues, you are not a Pentecostal and if you have not been baptized, you are not a Baptist or somesuch... Well you said "in my opinion" so fine. Religion is a load of crap. You don't need it to be a good person and get your just reward in the Afterlife. If God truly cares about what denomination you belong to or if you call Him Allah, God, or Jimmy, well then, I got something for Him.

You are right! You can not be a Catholic or Orthodox without believing in God, but you could still be a Christian. God can't judge people to hell just because they did not believe in him. That would not be fair.

Oh no! Did I really write a way to long post again? What a waste of time.

 

[Gothmog]

“I might have misunderstood the big bang theology. I thought that nothing happened before the big bang, and that event created our universe. I may be wrong. Do you have a better theory?”

You may think that nothing happened before the big bang, many other people may even agree with you. But there is no evidence that I know of to support this. There are lot’s of theories, but no evidence to help us differentiate them.

“The Pope has his right to believe that birth control is a sin, and you have the right to disagree with him. What the Pope believes does not hurt anybody except those who agree with him. The bible doesn't even say that there should be a Pope.”

I never said anything about who has the right to believe what, nor anything about the bible and the Pope. I was simply giving an example that what we believe does make a difference to others. Did you not read my example? What the pope believes helps to shape our world because so many people think he has some sort of divine insight. Thus charities are prevented from distributing condoms in Africa. Thus sexually transmitted disease spreads like wildfire. I used this example because it is so blatant. There are many other effects of the popes beliefs on African aid, but that’s another thread. IMnshO what the Pope believes does hurt people.

My point is simply that what we believe does make a difference to others through our actions (which are based on our beliefs). I only use the pope as an example because his beliefs are magnified due to the fact that so many people look to him for guidance, and because he bases his beliefs on religious considerations. Specifically Jesus and the new testament.

 

[thestonesfan]

I am a little man on a little world in a little galaxy. I put my faith in what I can see, but I'm not so foolish to think that I can see everything.

 

[Pikachu]

Originally posted by Gothmog
My point is simply that what we believe does make a difference to others through our actions (which are based on our beliefs).

I totally agree with you. What we believe is important because our actions are based on it, but if you act the same way even without believing what you are supposed to, what’s the difference? Bad faith doesn’t hurt anybody unless it leads to bad actions. Bad acts are terrible, bad believes are ok.

 

[floppa21]

Pikachu, first let me say not to misunderstand me or my tone. I got a pm from someone who agrees with me telling me not to lose my temper and get pissed off. I'm not and I don't mean to offend. I'm very sarcastic if you didn't know this, so keep that in mind also.

That said, those bible verses I posted were out of context and examples of what you posted earlier, something about taking what we want from the Bible and making it work for us.

As for you saying it would not be fair if God condemned us to Hell for not believing in Him... I agree it is not fair or right, but isn't that what He does? I thought it was. Forget speaking in tongues, baptism, or stigmata. As long as you accept Christ as your Savior, you will be fine. Isn't that a requirement? Unless you're Jehovah's Witness in which case a certain number of people go to Heaven, the rest go to Hell or a big waiting room.

Long posting. Ultimately is pointless but makes for good debate/discussion.

 

[Gothmog]

You are saying that I can go to heaven without accepting Jesus, thank you Pikachu. I have had lots of experience with religion helping people on a personal level, and lots of experience with religion hurting people on a societal level. I think that's the nature of the beast.

Still, I'm wondering. What do you make of the fact that a man (the Pope) who has spent his life studying the new testament and loving Jesus can still end up having such a profound negative effect on global politics?

 

[Henrique]

Sorry to jump right in the middle of the discussion but I don't think my notion of agnostics is the same as yours. If saying that there is no proof God exists nor that He doesn't makes me an agnostic (and that's what I understood from you), then I'm a very troubled catholic.

Back to Descartes (with the "Cogito ergo sum" thing), comes the concept that, aside from your own existence, there is absolutely no definitive proof on anything else, be it God, spoons, eletromagnetic waves, gnomes or Physical Laws. It is all a matter of belief. But then, I could be watching too much Matrix...

I myself believe in God, spoons, Physical Laws and eletromagnetic waves, but not in gnomes, though I have much more sympathy for anyone who says that he BELIEVES in gnomes than for someone trying to "logically" PROVE me that God exists.

Just my two cents.

 

[floppa21]

Henrique, one cannot prove LOGICALLY that God exists. It would have to be based on faith that God exists. So I'm with you there.

Gothmog - One can go to Heaven without accepting Christ? I don't think so. I thought the whole idea was to accept Christ as your Savior... If you do not, you are no better than a heathen who lives for pleasures of the flesh and naught else. Unless this is just Pikachu's 'version that works'...

Pope, Bin Laden, Jerry Falwell... (<---Bin & Jerry's Ice Cream )

 

[Neomega]

I spent halloween drunk, stoned and dressed up as Jesus.

Interestingly, after that night I decided I wouldn't mock Jesus anymore, (which I used to do frequently).

It's not that I believe he is still alive, nor do I believe he is the son of god.

I do believe he was a very influential man, who led a simple way of life that rejected the establishment in almost every way, and yet seemed to be so right, and for this he was put to death.

A sad story about humanity for sure.

 

[nihilistic]

Originally posted by Pikachu
I think you underestimate the capability of the human brain. My grandparents can remember things that happened more than 50 years ago quite accurate. I have no reason to doubt that their stories are close to true.

Even if they are capable, it still does not rule out the possibility that they are lying.

Originally posted by Pikachu
I don't think this question is relevant. Science suggests that the universe was created about 13 billion years ago with a big bang. As far as I can see, nothing indicates that the universe has always existed.

There is also nothing to suggest that it must have been "created" at some point either.

Originally posted by Pikachu
And that's the difference. God has always been here, so he has not been created. If the universe had always been here it would not have been created, but everything suggests that the universe has not been here forever.

Jesus was the perfect prophet, so we don't need any new ones. But I think God still talks to some people. They just don't tell it to you, or if they do, you don't believe them.

Magical God stuff still happens all the time. You just don't believe people when they tell you about it. You just hang on to your faith: there must be a logical explanation...

Why should anyone need to read the whole bible? The bible is huge! Christianity is for everybody. You don't need to study for years to understand it. Reading one of the gospels is enough. It is done in one afternoon. Mark is a good start; it's the shortest gospel.

The bible is just a book written by some people who knew something about God. A lot of what is written in the Old Testament is not valid anymore. There is a reason for every rule. As the world changes, the reasons for some rules disappear. Then the rules themselves become meaningless and should be abandoned. Jesus told us this. He used most of his time to rebel against the religious elite of his time because they took the scriptures too literally. The rules are there to serve the people, not the other way around.

Either proof or demonstrate a replicable process where it can be verified, or be considered bullsh*t.

 

[Pikachu]

Originally posted by floppa21
Pikachu, first let me say not to misunderstand me or my tone. I got a pm from someone who agrees with me telling me not to lose my temper and get pissed off. I'm not and I don't mean to offend. I'm very sarcastic if you didn't know this, so keep that in mind also.

That said, those bible verses I posted were out of context and examples of what you posted earlier, something about taking what we want from the Bible and making it work for us.

I am not offended by your sarcasm, floppa. Criticism is good, and I like heated debates.

I am sorry I misunderstood why you posted those bible verses, but you keep missing what Christianity is about. It is about Jesus. We can not take what we want from the bible and make it work for us. We have to take what Jesus said and make it work for us. We don't need the Old Testament at all (except for the 10 commands). We can not take any verses from there and call it 'Gods will' unless it agrees with what Jesus preached. And if it agrees with what Jesus preached, we wouldn't need the Old Testament to know it.

Originally posted by floppa21
As for you saying it would not be fair if God condemned us to Hell for not believing in Him... I agree it is not fair or right, but isn't that what He does?

No. God is upright, so he will not do anything unfair. It is true that it is impossible to make ourselves deserve paradise, so the only way in there is through the mercy of God. To achieve it we have to believe in him, but that is not relevant until the day we are at the gates of Saint Peter. When that happens even Stapel will believe.

Originally posted by Gothmog
You are saying that I can go to heaven without accepting Jesus, thank you Pikachu. I have had lots of experience with religion helping people on a personal level, and lots of experience with religion hurting people on a societal level. I think that's the nature of the beast.
Still, I'm wondering. What do you make of the fact that a man (the Pope) who has spent his life studying the new testament and loving Jesus can still end up having such a profound negative effect on global politics?

In my opinion the current Pope has a positive effect on global politics. Sure he has made mistakes like the one you pointed out, but he has done a lot of good things too. Has anybody with power ever done everything right? I hate to disappoint you, but the Pope is just a human. He makes mistakes like everybody else. Therefore he should not be given too much power. Jesus did not want religion to be used for political power.

Originally posted in Mark 10:42-45
And Jesus made them come to him, and said to them, You see that those who are made rulers over the Gentiles are lords over them, and their great ones have authority over them. But it is not so among you: but whoever has a desire to become great among you, let him be your servant: And whoever has a desire to be first among you, let him be servant of all. For truly the Son of man did not come to have servants, but to be a servant, and to give his life for the salvation of men.

Powermongers have always abused whatever they can to achieve their goals. Science, justice, socialism, friendship and religion has all been abused from time to time. It does not mean that all these things are bad.

Originally posted by nihilistic
Even if they are capable, it still does not rule out the possibility that they are lying.

You are right, they might lie, but I believe they are telling the truth the way they remember it. I also believe the gospels are telling what the authors believed was the truth. There are four gospel authors and all of them had spoken to a lot of eyewitnesses. If they are telling lies, a lot of people must have lied. Of course that is possible, but I believe they tried to tell the truth.

Originally posted by nihilistic
There is also nothing to suggest that it must have been "created" at some point either.

Some suggests that it was created by a big bang. They even have physical observations to support their theory. You may believe that the universe has always existed. I believe something else.

Originally posted by Henrique
Sorry to jump right in the middle of the discussion but I don't think my notion of agnostics is the same as yours. If saying that there is no proof God exists nor that He doesn't makes me an agnostic (and that's what I understood from you), then I'm a very troubled catholic.

Back to Descartes (with the "Cogito ergo sum" thing), comes the concept that, aside from your own existence, there is absolutely no definitive proof on anything else, be it God, spoons, eletromagnetic waves, gnomes or Physical Laws. It is all a matter of belief. But then, I could be watching too much Matrix...

I myself believe in God, spoons, Physical Laws and eletromagnetic waves, but not in gnomes, though I have much more sympathy for anyone who says that he BELIEVES in gnomes than for someone trying to &amp;quot;logically" PROVE me that God exists.

Just my two cents.

Thank you, Henrique, you are bringing the discussion back to the topic. What is an agnostic? If it is somebody who doesn't now whether God exists or not, everybody are agnostics. I think that the differences between Atheists, Agnostics and Christians (or maybe any religious people) are what we call ourselves, not what we believe. How sure do you have to be that there is no God to become an Atheist and how sure do you have to be that there is a God to become a Christian? 100% sure, 90% sure or 51%? As you know, I think what we believe and call ourselves is irrelevant. It tells more about where we live than who we are.

 

[Moony]

Originally posted by Pikachu

In my opinion the current Pope has a positive effect on global politics. Sure he has made mistakes like the one you pointed out, but he has done a lot of good things too. Has anybody with power ever done everything right? I hate to disappoint you, but the Pope is just a human. He makes mistakes like everybody else. Therefore he should not be given too much power. Jesus did not want religion to be used for political power.

The argument wasn't about whether the Pope was human or not, but whether someone's religion affects others.And not believing in birth control is not a mistake, but merely an opinion. But, him being the Pope, what his opinions are affect others, i.e., the condomless people of Africa.

Originally posted by Pikachu
Some suggests that it was created by a big bang. They even have physical observations to support their theory. You may believe that the universe has always existed. I believe something else.

I may have missed something, I probably did, but how do you think the universe was created? If you believe God has always been around, you would believe in Genesis, no?
Genesis is part of the Old Testament, of which you think is obsolete.

Originally posted by Pikachu
Thank you, Henrique, you are bringing the discussion back to the topic. What is an agnostic? If it is somebody who doesn't now whether God exists or not, everybody are agnostics. I think that the differences between Atheists, Agnostics and Christians (or maybe any religious people) are what we call ourselves, not what we believe. How sure do you have to be that there is no God to become an Atheist and how sure do you have to be that there is a God to become a Christian? 100% sure, 90% sure or 51%? As you know, I think what we believe and call ourselves is irrelevant. It tells more about where we live than who we are.

Why is it that everyone thinks that you must be sure of something to believe in it? Well, first off, the correct way of saying "everybody are agnostics" would be "everybody is an agnostic", everybody, in the sense of the sentence, is singular. But, moving on..

I've always been basically told that Atheists deny that there is a God, agnostic believe that we cannot know thus it is irrelavent to think about, and Christianity, plus all other religions I can think of besides Buddism, believe in (a) God/s/ess. Of course, there is much more to each of them than that.

To believe, by the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary,
means "to accept trustfully and on faith; to hold an opinion;to consider true or honest". Nowhere does it say anything of certainity. It does, however, use the words trust, faith, opinion, consider, thus a belief is what you THINK , not what you know.

And Pikachu, sorry for being so blunt with this, but Christianity is much more than good morals. Yes, he did preach that, but he also preached about much more, i.e. the goodness of God. I have good morals, but not because Jesus said it, and I do not believe there is a God, thus he cannot have any goodness. I am a good person, I think, but I don't believe everything Christ preached and I don't believe in a God. Thus, I am not a Christian, but just because I say I'm not, but because I don't have the same beliefs as a Christian.