I pledge to not buy Civ 6 until it is released

[miaasma]

Many people pre-order movie tickets months in advance, especially for a big blockbuster (i.e. AAA title). For just 3 people you've already spent over $60. There are plenty of crappy big-budget movies, but that is no different than the way it was before.

do you think this is comparable though? i think a better analogy for what's being complained about in the gaming industry would be releasing a movie with certain parts of it cut out and replaced with static. an unfinished movie that people pre-ordered tickets for would certainly influence people's decision to pre-order them in the future, and rightly so

 

[Danthor]

I agree to most of what has been said here (if not all) about the evil of pre-ordering and I avoid pre-ordering in most cases.
But, we are talking about Civilization; for me the Holy Grail of my non-female-nor-football-related free time

Result: I already pre-ordered Civ (at a 27% discount)

 

[unpossible251]

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that I'm a rabid Civ junkie and that the promise of a new hat for Caesar is enough to make me throw open my wallet and / or pants.

Let's also say, for arguments sake, that I know enough not to trust EA or Ubisoft with preorders, for anything, ever, and that giving money upfront for this franchise that I dearly love is "calculated risk".

Is it true (and i'm genuinely asking this, i don't know) that presale money makes it back to the developer in time to have an effect on the game building process? Even if, say, most of the major features are locked in by now, a few bucks coming in during the final months gives the devs the finances to hire another code monkey or play tester to iron out a few bugs that might have slipped through otherwise? Hypothetically?

 

[Staler87]

Even numbered civs are better. Where is the so-called "calculated risk" you speak of when we can have facts like this.

 

[Acken]

Let's just say, for arguments sake, that I'm a rabid Civ junkie and that the promise of a new hat for Caesar is enough to make me throw open my wallet and / or pants.

Let's also say, for arguments sake, that I know enough not to trust EA or Ubisoft with preorders, for anything, ever, and that giving money upfront for this franchise that I dearly love is "calculated risk".

Is it true (and i'm genuinely asking this, i don't know) that presale money makes it back to the developer in time to have an effect on the game building process? Even if, say, most of the major features are locked in by now, a few bucks coming in during the final months gives the devs the finances to hire another code monkey or play tester to iron out a few bugs that might have slipped through otherwise? Hypothetically?

No. Pre orders for massive companies have no effect. Small indies can use it but its called a kickstarter nowadays.

Its mostly a financial appeal to have pre orders. Get the money earlier guranteed sale easier to judge the market etc... Which is fine. Not sure why anyone would do it without bonuses though.

 

[CivCube]

The community elders have spoken!

 

[Zaarin]

I think you're incorrect that pre-ordering is at the heart of what's wrong with the gaming industry. What's wrong with the gaming industry is top-tier companies like EA, Ubisoft, and Bethesda that pump out mediocre, play-it-safe games. Fortunately, this is easily circumvented by ignoring their crap and discovering that indie and small developers make better games*.

*Yes, I am very much aware that there are some abominably awful indie titles. In my experience, indie games represent both the best and the worst of the market, while AAA titles are rarely either brilliant or horrible, just insipid.

 

[plasmacannon]

I think it's both.
The last game I pre-ordered with it's guide book was the infamous MOO3.
Since, that disaster I have never pre-ordered and choose not to for the same reasons others have stated here.
Even when MOO4 was hyped as fixing the past, I remained skeptical. They kept the star lanes in from MOO3 which is what I disliked most about it and still haven't purchased it.
I haven't purchased Civ5 either.
Civ6 looks like they took Civ Revolution's cartoonish characters and put them on a Civ5 map with a few game changes.
I fear Civ's reduced complexity will continue to turn others from 'pre-orders', to 'when it hits the shelves', to 'when the complete version is out', because it takes that long for the good mod-ding community to make the changes to give everyone more options and make each version of Civ great again.
Civ4 Realism Invictus mod has been my happy version of this game.
I wish these games were made with a cartoonish or realistic checkbox option, just like some games have for 'show blood'.

 

[m15a]

do you think this is comparable though? i think a better analogy for what's being complained about in the gaming industry would be releasing a movie with certain parts of it cut out and replaced with static. an unfinished movie that people pre-ordered tickets for would certainly influence people's decision to pre-order them in the future, and rightly so

There has been a lot of criticism of big films that are "unfinished" stories in the sense that they are designed to lead into a sequel. There has been a lot of talk about how it's a recent and negative trend that should be fought by the moviegoers (oddly ignoring clear predecessors like the original Star Wars trilogy).

I don't want to take the analogy too far, but whether that criticism of episodic movies is valid depends on the end result. There are a few movies that have been split into episodic parts that, in my opinion, were much stronger because they focused on specific aspects of the story instead of having to complete the whole narrative in two hours (The Empire Strikes Back is a particularly strong example IMO).

I guess by analogy, one should ask whether the patch and expansions/DLC process used in previous Civs made the whole experience better or worse. Does playing a buggy "unfinished" game at launch worse than waiting for a "complete" release? Depends on the individual I guess.

 

[ash88]

I think you're incorrect that pre-ordering is at the heart of what's wrong with the gaming industry.

If your responding to me (OP) then I don't think I've ever thought that. I think Pre-Orders are something that is wrong with the gaming industry, but I don't think anything is wrong with the "Heart" of the gaming industry. As industrys go I think it is pretty much on par with some good examples of Customer friendlier companies (Valve and Blizzard, for my money - though I'm sure this can be debated) and evil, deplorable companies (EA, Ubisoft).

Most, like 2k Games / Take Two, fall in between not only as companies but on individual issues. In my humble opinion anyways.

How refreshing would it be if 2k Games said something like, "No preorders. No Gimmicks. Everyone will get the same game on release." I just find a lot more integrity with that then "If you trust us and buy now we will give you free lutz!!>!> ZOMG! BUY BUY BUY." No?

*Yes, I am very much aware that there are some abominably awful indie titles. In my experience, indie games represent both the best and the worst of the market, while AAA titles are rarely either brilliant or horrible, just insipid.

I agree with you wholeheartedly on this and you have put this more succicently then I have previously. I recently lost a week of my life to Factorio... damn out-of-nowhere brilliant indie games.

 

[Sherlock]

I will be moving in the middle of October and probably won't have internet till November 1st.

Which is what, three weeks till the Steam Thanksgiving sale?

Will be hard to wait for that but maybe I will.

 

[m15a]

How refreshing would it be if 2k Games said something like, "No preorders. No Gimmicks. Everyone will get the same game on release."

I'm sure there would be people annoyed that they don't have the option of pre-ordering (possibly because they want to get a pre-order discount but possibly just because that's what they want to do).

And I'm not sure 2k could just decide there will be no pre-orders - even if 2k didn't have something official, it's always the option of the seller to sell pre-orders, isn't it? I'm not sure 2k decided there would be a Steam controller bundle available on Steam and they certainly don't give direct approval to third party pre-purchase discounts.

Also, as far as we know, everyone will get the same game on release. It may even be possible 2k specifically decided against pre-order bonuses (like Babylon was with Civ V), and yet they're still be criticized for using pre-order tactics.

 

[ash88]

I guess by analogy, one should ask whether the patch and expansions/DLC process used in previous Civs made the whole experience better or worse. Does playing a buggy "unfinished" game at launch worse than waiting for a "complete" release? Depends on the individual I guess.

DLC to me feels cheap. Cheap like the under-coating that people try to upsell you on your car. (Protip: Never by the undercoating).

It's a feeling, and therefore more subjective then a lot of other things in this thread. I just wish there was a better way for them to do it.

I like the feeling that the Kickstarter extended Goals have - best example I can think of is Pillars of Eternity - that whole project seemed incredibly well managed. But that's not DLC so much as new features at launch.

But then the question becomes what is DLC, which I don't like, versus an expansion, which I generally do. I don't know the answer to that.

What I do know (and steering back towards the topic) is that I would take a out-of-the-gate polished game with less features then a buggy game with more features. The thing is that "lack of Bugs" is not a marketing bullet that you can put in a press release while, "Full Religion system and espionage system and Diplomatic Victory Conditions" each are.

So features tend to win out over "less bugs, more polish" because it drives hype/sales. The catch that companies don't get is that "less bugs, more polish" is associated with the company, not the product. So releasing a buggy game that is feature rich damages the brand more than releasing a polished game with less features.

And so you end up with companies that "don't understand" why they are so hated (cough, EA, cough).

 

[ash88]

I'm sure there would be people annoyed that they don't have the option of pre-ordering (possibly because they want to get a pre-order discount but possibly just because that's what they want to do).

And I'm not sure 2k could just decide there will be no pre-orders - even if 2k didn't have something official, it's always the option of the seller to sell pre-orders, isn't it? I'm not sure 2k decided there would be a Steam controller bundle available on Steam and they certainly don't give direct approval to third party pre-purchase discounts.

Also, as far as we know, everyone will get the same game on release. It may even be possible 2k specifically decided against pre-order bonuses (like Babylon was with Civ V), and yet they're still be criticized for using pre-order tactics.

Yeah, you might be right, I don't know enough about this side of things to know comment too heavily. If it is a distributor thing then it's a harder battle, but if enough software publishers demand it then distributors will offer it. Go capitalism.

As for the landscape right now you very well could be correct. I have no idea.

 

[nokmirt]

It will allow him to buy it at a later date at a discount.

What an excellent Idea.

 

[thecrazyscot]

True. But delaying a release is a common occurence, and usually well respected. Also - having a team that manages the feature list to ensure that the features that are delivered are done (often at the expense of more superfluous features) is something that happens in every. single. game.

Even games with preorders are sometimes pushed back...that just happened with No Man's Sky.

Although true I would argue that 90s games were buggy pieces of crap for different reasons, typically, then AAA titles of today.

Perhaps, but I wager that almost all of the reasons are exactly the same, the usual reasons why a product turns out poorly (rushed production, inadequate QA, unfocused dev team, heavy-handed publisher interference, etc etc)...none of which have anything remotely related to preordering.

And I respect that there are lots of reasons to preorder. The biggest one being the % discount. I remember being a cash-strapped student that jumped at stuff like that. Hell, I remember being a cash-strapped new-dad that jumped at stuff like that.

And I respect that there are plenty of reasons not to preorder There are plenty of times I've chosen not to preorder myself for quite a few of those reasons. I just disagree that the particular one we're discussing is a good one for the gaming community as a whole

I don't think that any one person choosing to preorder is actively lowering anything. I think that the pre-order trend overall lowers the quality of finished games. I respect that whether for financial reasons, or time reasons (pre-downloads are awesome) or any number of other reasons preordering may be the right decision for the individual.

I don't want to reinvent the wheel. You can honestly Google it and find articulate people explaining it better than I ever could. Few people claim that Preorders are "good" for us gamers. I haven't seen one, but in a world where people tell me the earth is flat I'm sure they are out there.

That's just the thing...I've had this same discussion with plenty of people over the past few years and I've never seen any compelling, hard evidence that preordering actually lowers the quality of finished games. I've heard plenty of arguments, plenty of examples of poor-quality games, but none of them - not a single one - could preordering be reasonably claimed to be the reason it turned out poorly. I haven't even seen good evidence that it's been a contributing factor. Any of the factors I listed before arguably were the reason for poor games.

There seems to be a general feeling among many gamers that preordering is bad for all sorts of theoretical reasons, but there are plenty of theoretical reasons for why preordering could be a good thing too.

The point is it is an old discussion at this point with "proof" a-plenty. Unless you need a scientific article reference for proof... then no... no proof. But again - no one can "prove" the earth isn't flat to some people.

In anycase - I enjoyed your counterpoint.

But there isn't proof OR "proof" at this point I'll be happy for a single example of a game which was ruined by preordering. No peer-reviewed study needed!

And yes, I am also enjoying our discussion

You're trying to convince us that paying for something that isn't finished with a long history of said product remaining unfinished is somehow having a positive effect on it being finished. However, once the product is out the incentive shifts to DLC and future titles, not fixing the release state of the game past a minimum standard.

Here's an important point - I've never claimed that preordering is good. I've just disagreed that it's bad. You still haven't provided any evidence that it is.

I'm of the opinion that it can be good or bad on a purely personal level for a host of different reasons, all of which can be quite valid.

do you think this is comparable though? i think a better analogy for what's being complained about in the gaming industry would be releasing a movie with certain parts of it cut out and replaced with static. an unfinished movie that people pre-ordered tickets for would certainly influence people's decision to pre-order them in the future, and rightly so

I'll grant that there are certainly a few examples of games with content obviously ripped out for DLC, but on the whole it seems that most games aren't developed like that. A lot of DLC...even Day 1 DLC...is developed after a game goes gold (sent to the manufacturer to print the disks) but before it goes on sale. There's usually a good couple of months during that time when they work on Day 1 patches and other content which can't go into the game because it's already shipped.

So, I find that particular argument unfair to the developer and the publisher because it's based on a generally unrealistic view of game development.

 

[Acken]

Not much is wrong with the industry.

The amount of per year gems has always been similar. The amount of pile of crap games in the 90s preying on unsuspecting customer was astounding. Something way harder to do successfully nowadays.

Also video game prices with DLC included haven't gone up when you count for inflation.

The market also evolved. Your average gamer is no longer in his/her 20ies but in his 30ies with a job and kids.

To me this is mostly rose tinted nostalgia where the past looks brighter only because you were younger and didn't know better. The world is bound to become more and more bleak as you slide toward your grave.

 

[Red Pearl]

I wonder what percentage of people regret preordering civ5.

 

[ash88]

That's just the thing...I've had this same discussion with plenty of people over the past few years and I've never seen any compelling, hard evidence that preordering actually lowers the quality of finished games. I've heard plenty of arguments, plenty of examples of poor-quality games, but none of them - not a single one - could preordering be reasonably claimed to be the reason it turned out poorly.

Ok, what would you accept as proof? What could I provide to you right now that would cause you to go, "Oh, damn - I hadn't seen that - OK, I'm convinced?"

Outside of Math and Science proof is a subjective concept. People believe the earth is flat because there is no proof. (I tried to tell them about the +1 ship movement speed bonus for being the first to circumventing the earth but they didn't get it).

Keep in mind that the proof you need may not be out there, and that makes it no less true. At the risk of getting in to a philosophical discussion on the nature of truth: when we see consistent, cohesive, correspondent situations we usually adopt them as "true" whether or not we have a mathematical equation to back us up.

But in a world where 97% of scientists can say "Yes" to global warming and people still say "SHOW ME THE PROOF!" ... well. Maybe our extinction is justified and for the best

 

[ash88]

I wonder what percentage of people regret preordering civ5.

I do. It's not a life-regret or anything, but if I knew then what I know now I would have passed on it completely.