Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[Nor'easter]

I posted on this in the Wild Mana forums a few months back, but the same issue also exists in RifE, so thought I'd offer feedback on this here as well.

This isn't specific to either RifE or Wild Mana, but carried over from base FfH, and doesn't seem quite right:

The Khazad and Luchuirp have as one of their unique units the Dwarven Druid, which requires Neutral alignment. Two of the four Luchuirp leaders are Good, the other two Neutral. One of the four Khazad leaders is Evil, the rest Neutral.

So if you start as a Good leader of the Luchuirp, you have to convert to Octopus Overlords to build the Dwarven Druid. The flavor doesn't seem quite right, i.e., having to convert to a religion of Asylums, Lunatics, Krakens, and water-walking demons (Stygian Guards) to build a unit whose magic relates to the Earth. (The Evil Khazad ruler would have to convert to RoK or Empyrean, which doesn't seem quite so strange, but still.)

The easiest solution would probably be to remove the alignment restriction for Dwarven Druids and, if you think it necessary, balance that by blocking the Khazad and Luchuirp from building Paladins and Eidolons.

Alternatively, you could make all the Khazad and Luchuirp leaders Neutral, but that would be a bit dull, I think.

Also, building a Dwarven Druid requires a Grove, which doesn't seem to quite fit units whose power relates to Earth magic (Crush, Earthquakes) as opposed to the Nature magic of the standard Druid. You might, therefore, consider giving the Khazad and Luchuirp a replacement UB for the Grove, e.g., Stone Circle, Megalith, Dolmen, Cromlech. Instead of +2 with Guardian of Nature, maybe +2 with Arete or another civic?

Just some thoughts. As I said, the flavor doesn't seem quite right with the steps you're sometimes required to take to build one of your UUs.

 

[Valkrionn]

Well, after 1.4 some of the religions are changing a bit (Hint: OO will not be called OO, nor will it be evil), but on the whole, I agree with you. And a UB Grove would be interesting.

 

[Nor'easter]

Thanks for the good word, Valkrionn. I kind of like OO as it is, but I'll look forward to seeing what you do with it in 1.4.

 

[Valkrionn]

Eh... Few things about OO that explain our reasoning for changing it (how it is changed, will not be discussed yet ):

• The religion is pure chaos. The gods are as likely to be good as they are evil, just for the sake of being more chaotic. Doesn't lend itself to an evil alignment as a result.
• Demons do not fit the religion.
• Specifying the nature of the gods ("Octopus Overlords") goes against the chaotic nature of the religion, IMO.

 

[Nor'easter]

As I said, I'll look forward to seeing the implementation.

I was thinking on Dwarven Druids, if you do remove the alignment restriction, it may not be necessary to block the Khazad and Luchuirp from building Paladins and Eidolons as a balancing measure. After all, any civ can have Druids alongside Paladins and/or Eidolons if it's willing to change religion and alignment a few times. You'd just be making it easier for the Khazad and Luchuirp.

 

[Krieger66]

Well, after 1.4 some of the religions are changing a bit (Hint: OO will not be called OO, nor will it be evil), but on the whole, I agree with you. And a UB Grove would be interesting.

But that would really cut into an evil civ's choices of religion...

 

[Valkrionn]

Not particularly.

 

[Krieger66]

Not particularly.

But that only leaves AV as a completely evil religion(or frozen and they both pretty much kill you)...there should be an evil religion that doesn't end up destroying all your territory, like a group of evil shadows led by a group of demons known only as the queen and jack of spades for instance.

 

[Valkrionn]

Again, not particularly.

 

[Nor'easter]

And a UB Grove would be interesting.

My thinking was simply that "Grove" doesn't seem to fit Dwarven Druids. And if there's to be a Khazad/Luchuirp replacement for the Grove, it should have different effects, otherwise it's just the same building with a different name.

Glad you think it's an interesting idea.

 

[KrugSmash]

Eh... Few things about OO that explain our reasoning for changing it (how it is changed, will not be discussed yet ):

• The religion is pure chaos. The gods are as likely to be good as they are evil, just for the sake of being more chaotic. Doesn't lend itself to an evil alignment as a result.
• Demons do not fit the religion.
• Specifying the nature of the gods ("Octopus Overlords") goes against the chaotic nature of the religion, IMO.

I liked the changes Ahwaric made in Orbis, which sound like they may be along the same lines, namely renaming the religion to 'The Old Ones', removing the drown, stygian guards are no longer demons, and and altered the crazed promotion to make lunatics more chaotic.

Here are the patch notes from when that happened

Spoiler :

Octopus overlords (thanks for the ideas & feedback Imuratep!)
Renamed to: The Old Ones
Drown no longer associated with OO - wild unit spawned in exploration only
Lunatic now strength 4/4, starts with crazied, requires message from the deep and temple of overlords, upgrades to berserker, immortal, priest of overlords or stygian guard
Crazed is now a different promotion (old one merged with mad, now not only used by Alcinus)
Crazed randomly grants following promotions (30% chance each): blitz, morale, dance of blades, strength of the deep, weak, held
All promotions granted by crazied will stay for just 1 turn, next turn the set is regenerated
If you got blitz by any other means, it is still permanent (no risk of loosing it)
New promotion - strength of the deep: +2 attack strength, +1 defense, water walking, amphibious
added OO trials (idea by Imuratep):
grip of insanity - caster can gain either crazied or mental clarity (both promotions block another try, the higher the level of the caster, the better chance for clarity)
grip of chaos - requires mental clarity & OO high priest (speaker) - 20% chance for avatar of the old ones, ALWAYS mutates unit (will stack with standard mutation)
Stygian guards no longer demons, require asylum

As for dwarven druids, perhaps a crystalline cavern as the grove UU, a nice underground, natural shiny structure.

And speaking of groves, I just remembered a slight issue I have. When groves become buildable, they seem to be far too highly reccomended by cities, when sometimes they carry no benefit. I get a fresh city with nothing in it but a monument, and it wants me to build a grove.

 

[Valkrionn]

I liked the changes Ahwaric made in Orbis, which sound like they may be along the same lines, namely renaming the religion to 'The Old Ones', removing the drown, stygian guards are no longer demons, and and altered the crazed promotion to make lunatics more chaotic.

Here are the patch notes from when that happened

Spoiler :

Octopus overlords (thanks for the ideas & feedback Imuratep!)
Renamed to: The Old Ones
Drown no longer associated with OO - wild unit spawned in exploration only
Lunatic now strength 4/4, starts with crazied, requires message from the deep and temple of overlords, upgrades to berserker, immortal, priest of overlords or stygian guard
Crazed is now a different promotion (old one merged with mad, now not only used by Alcinus)
Crazed randomly grants following promotions (30% chance each): blitz, morale, dance of blades, strength of the deep, weak, held
All promotions granted by crazied will stay for just 1 turn, next turn the set is regenerated
If you got blitz by any other means, it is still permanent (no risk of loosing it)
New promotion - strength of the deep: +2 attack strength, +1 defense, water walking, amphibious
added OO trials (idea by Imuratep):
grip of insanity - caster can gain either crazied or mental clarity (both promotions block another try, the higher the level of the caster, the better chance for clarity)
grip of chaos - requires mental clarity & OO high priest (speaker) - 20% chance for avatar of the old ones, ALWAYS mutates unit (will stack with standard mutation)
Stygian guards no longer demons, require asylum

As for dwarven druids, perhaps a crystalline cavern as the grove UU, a nice underground, natural shiny structure.

And speaking of groves, I just remembered a slight issue I have. When groves become buildable, they seem to be far too highly reccomended by cities, when sometimes they carry no benefit. I get a fresh city with nothing in it but a monument, and it wants me to build a grove.

Yeah, the idea is similar, but will be done differently. For one, it's not called the Old Ones, drowns aren't removed but changed, etc.

And with the Evil religion thing "issue" that Krieger mentioned... Pay attention to our twitter on the main forum. All I'll say.


In other news, I've started on Dynamic Traits. Have LeaderClasses in (necessary to control DynTraits, replaces LeaderStatus), and am working on the mechanic for gaining traits... Right now I can gain Aggressive if I kill enough units, though that's the only way to gain a trait atm. Wanted to test, before adding more tags.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I don't see why you are changing it that much. I always liked the fact that OO had to do with taking over the precinct of water from Dalin. It perfectly represented the idea that as the good god of the sea went to sleep darker things took over. That is why drowns made so much sense.

The whole thing that they were essentially things from nightmares come to life lurking just beyond the imagination under the waves consuming the souls of those sacrificed to them by cultists that hear them in the dripping of the water.

 

[Valkrionn]

I don't see why you are changing it that much. I always liked the fact that OO had to do with taking over the precinct of water from Dalin. It perfectly represented the idea that as the good god of the sea went to sleep darker things took over. That is why drowns made so much sense.

The whole thing that they were essentially things from nightmares come to life lurking just beyond the imagination under the waves consuming the souls of those sacrificed to them by cultists that hear them in the dripping of the water.

And we arent' changing that part. And Drowns will make even more sense.

What we are changing is removing the Evil bent, as it doesn't fit something that should be pure Chaos, and removing the Demon taint from the religion, which never fit.

 

[Torugu]

While I'm not necessarily opposed to the planned changes I think that neither the evil bent nor the demons were unfitting for the OO. After all it's not just that Dalim went to sleep and all order went out of the window, his dreams were invaded by the archangel of Mommon who causes him to have nightmares. The Overlords are spawned from the unholy union between the neutral god of water and an evil archangel making their evil touch very much appropriate.

 

[Valkrionn]

Eh. To me, they are 100% chaos... Which precludes good or evil. As likely to do one as the other, just to avoid patterns.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

OO is evil thou, if nothing else than due to the fact that they willingly built asylums and use mind control on people. Oh, and than there is the whole drowning ritual thing. It's a quite different sort of evil than AV thou. Although in hindsight, FFH is grimdark to the bone so what we see is evil might actually pass for meh in that world when compared to AV... A chilling thought indeed.

 

[Valkrionn]

The Drown ritual is evil?

Believing so totally in a religion that you are willing to harm yourself in it's cause is evil?

Woops... Someone tell the Catholics. And Muslims. And pretty much every other major religion on the planet.

 

[Krieger66]

The Drown ritual is evil?

Believing so totally in a religion that you are willing to harm yourself in it's cause is evil?

Woops... Someone tell the Catholics. And Muslims. And pretty much every other major religion on the planet.

As soon as you can tell me about a religion that has its priests slit a worshipper's throat and push them into a drowning pool to create a zombie-like creature, I'll agree with you(and possibly try to join them).

Cults are not included for the purpose of the question, so voodoo/witchdoctors are not being included here. Just a friendly heads up.

 

[Valkrionn]

Mainstream Christian sects have advocated whipping yourself as penance. Islam, we all know the part about the virgins

Others advocate starving yourself or enduring physical pain to reach nirvana, so it is not simply western religions either.

All religions have some form of self-harm within them, whether currently mainstream or not. Simply part of such a very strong belief, IMO. Hell, ideologies are subject to much the same thing, for the same reasons. And remember, the drowned go willingly. Generally.