Ideas, Requests, and Feedback

[Krieger66]

Mainstream Christian sects have advocated whipping yourself as penance. Islam, we all know the part about the virgins

Others advocate starving yourself or enduring physical pain to reach nirvana, so it is not simply western religions either.

All religions have some form of self-harm within them, whether currently mainstream or not. Simply part of such a very strong belief, IMO. Hell, ideologies are subject to much the same thing, for the same reasons. And remember, the drowned go willingly. Generally.

Yeah, but for most of these religions it was isolated to only extremist factions; for instance the al qaeda branch of islam. Or their beliefs were abandoned as people realized it wasn't a giant glowing being that was telling them to hurt themselves.

"It never crossed my mind to protest as we came to the pool and she pushed me into the water. I felt something grabbing my arms and legs and pulling me down, but the priestess smiled at me, and her happiness was all that I cared for. I opened my mouth to sing a song of praise for her, and it was only then that I realized I was underwater, water filling my mouth and my lungs. For a brief moment, panic filled me and broke the spell - I screamed, and the priestess threw back her head and laughed.

For a moment, I thought I felt a distant memory when I crushed the skull of the first people the priestess told me to slay. She must have seen my confusion, for she laughed in her angelic voice. With a happy gleam in her eye, she told me that the corpses at my feet were those of my wife and children. I looked at her and the bodies, and there was another momentary feeling of recalling something, but the words bore no meaning to me. I looked at the corpses and shrugged, and we left, her joy echoing in my ears."

The Overlords' also use mind magic to force their followers and complete strangers to obey them. Neutrality implies neither good or evil, but forcing someone to kill their own familiy is decidedly evil, I mean if anything they are more of a chaotic evil religion.

 

[Valkrionn]

Yeah, but for most of these religions it was isolated to only extremist factions; for instance the al qaeda branch of islam. Or their beliefs were abandoned as people realized it wasn't a giant glowing being that was telling them to hurt themselves.

"It never crossed my mind to protest as we came to the pool and she pushed me into the water. I felt something grabbing my arms and legs and pulling me down, but the priestess smiled at me, and her happiness was all that I cared for. I opened my mouth to sing a song of praise for her, and it was only then that I realized I was underwater, water filling my mouth and my lungs. For a brief moment, panic filled me and broke the spell - I screamed, and the priestess threw back her head and laughed.

For a moment, I thought I felt a distant memory when I crushed the skull of the first people the priestess told me to slay. She must have seen my confusion, for she laughed in her angelic voice. With a happy gleam in her eye, she told me that the corpses at my feet were those of my wife and children. I looked at her and the bodies, and there was another momentary feeling of recalling something, but the words bore no meaning to me. I looked at the corpses and shrugged, and we left, her joy echoing in my ears."

The Overlords' also use mind magic to force their followers and complete strangers to obey them. Neutrality implies neither good or evil, but forcing someone to kill their own familiy is decidedly evil, I mean if anything they are more of a chaotic evil religion.

IMO, it's mostly the "abandoned" choice, and even then, it's generally only to be replaced in some new, more insane way. And on Erebus, there ARE giant glowing beings telling you to hurt yourself.

And yes, that event would have been evil, absolutely. My point is that anything that is TRULY chaotic, which I view OO as qualifying for, would then be just as liable to turn around and rescue that cute kitten in the tree as they are to burn that town over there to the ground.

Chaotic Evil desires destruction of creation. Chaotic Evil is AV... NOT OO.

 

[Torugu]

The Drown ritual is evil?

Believing so totally in a religion that you are willing to harm yourself in it's cause is evil?

Woops... Someone tell the Catholics. And Muslims. And pretty much every other major religion on the planet.

Well, yeah. We atheists have been doing that for about a century...

 

[Valkrionn]

And atheists can be just as bad about it, as it's not just religion... But ideologies as well.

 

[Torugu]

And atheists can be just as bad about it, as it's not just religion... But ideologies as well.

Indeed, anybody who substitutes his own rational thinking with a superior authority is liable to the same mistakes. It really doesn't matter if you worship Yahweh or Stalin.

That is a were weak argument if its meant to defend religion btw, it's like saying "There are murderers so pedophilia is a-okay."

 

[JEiK66]

What have the OO done that is good? Why would Mammon make a religion of pure chaos?
Ultimately Valk, make the game you want.

 

[Valkrionn]

Indeed, anybody who substitutes his own rational thinking with a superior authority is liable to the same mistakes. It really doesn't matter if you worship Yahweh or Stalin.

That is a were weak argument if its meant to defend religion btw, it's like saying "There are murderers so pedophilia is a-okay."

Oh, it absolutely was not meant to defend religion.

Nor should I have to; Religion has, for a very long term, guided society and established firm societal mores. IMO, that is one of the most important contributions that religion has given the world; Yes, it has often been warped, misguided, or even evil, but it has also produced figures such as Buddha, Jesus, Mother Theresa, etc. As with all things humanity has produced, it is not wholly good or bad.

And yeah, Stalin is a good reference there. Thought about explicitly mentioning Capitalism and Communism, both prompt much the same issues as religion.

What have the OO done that is good? Why would Mammon make a religion of pure chaos?
Ultimately Valk, make the game you want.

Who knows? Not too much official lore one way or another, honestly.

And for what it's worth: Mammon didn't create the religion. He created Danalin's nightmares... Which prompted Danalin's subconscious to create the religion.

Which should, IMO, mean there is some impact of Danalin's personality on it.

Also: It's not the game that I want, but the game the team as a whole wants. Very few circumstances where it's not "majority rules".



In any case: There's not much point arguing it until 1.4 is out, with the changes in place.

 

[PPQ_Purple]

I think I actually nailed down the evil in OO thou. The thing is, I see it pretty much as an equal opportunity religion with little strings attached. Compare it to the others for a moment.

The Order, FOL and Empyrean all require you to fallow their rules pray their way and general live the life they demand to give you their powers. AV is not so picky, but this is Erebus and AV worshipers know fully well what they are doing. OO on the other hand seems not to demand that much devotion. If pedia entries for minor leaders are to be believed any old cultist can perform the drowning ritual and stuff like that and their temples and ceremonies resemble pagan rituals with orgies and stuff more than they do traditional closed minded Order worship. So in essence it is power with very little strings attached. I can see how that can and will attract a lot of evil people without making the religion it self evil.

Point conceded.

 

[Torugu]

Oh, it absolutely was not meant to defend religion.

Nor should I have to; Religion has, for a very long term, guided society and established firm societal mores. IMO, that is one of the most important contributions that religion has given the world; Yes, it has often been warped, misguided, or even evil, but it has also produced figures such as Buddha, Jesus, Mother Theresa, etc. As with all things humanity has produced, it is not wholly good or bad.

And yeah, Stalin is a good reference there. Thought about explicitly mentioning Capitalism and Communism, both prompt much the same issues as religion.

I could quote Feuerbach and argue that religion didn't "guide society and establish firm societal mores" but that humans projected their inherent ethic code onto religion, but I don't even need to.

You are talking about the past even if I wanted to remove religion from the 16th century I can't, your argument is completely beside the point (anybody who thinks past achievements are relevant to this discussion can feel free to move to the absolute monarchy of his/her choice).
Fact is as we speak the belief in a magic man in the sky causes the spread of HIV in Africa, homophobia, gender inequality, racism, genocide, terrorism, various forms of individual suffering (think of the aftermath of the "rapture" in America) and the denial of scientific facts.

People are free to belief whatever, but I'm afraid I don't see how people can defend organized religion...


Sorry for derailing the threat so much btw, but some just things need to be said...


On topic: I think Danalin's nightmares being nightmares implies that they are evil to some extend. If he were Junil I could imagine his nightmares being utter chaos but Danalin is a somewhat chaotic deity anyway (which is why some of the more nasty mages sought his protection against Bhaal before her fall)...
I'm looking forward to the changes you'll be making, I just don't think your reasons for them are very well thought out.

 

[shoggi]

The whole religion discussion aside, you do realize that you aren't fond of changes on the basis of facts that are part of the things that might change?

You can't say Octopus Overlords are evil, because they are evil in FFH.
RifE is not FFH.
If we make them chaotic instead of evil, then they are chaotic. If we say that Danalins Dreams/Nightmares are a chaotic mess that shaped this religion, then they are a chaotic mess.

Even the term nightmares don't necessary imply evil. My nightmares for example are mostly weird disjointed jumbles too.

 

[A Moon]

The whole religion discussion aside, you do realize that you aren't fond of changes on the basis of facts that are part of the things that might change?

You can't say Octopus Overlords are evil, because they are evil in FFH.
RifE is not FFH.
If we make them chaotic instead of evil, then they are chaotic. If we say that Danalins Dreams/Nightmares are a chaotic mess that shaped this religion, then they are a chaotic mess.

Even the term nightmares don't necessary imply evil. My nightmares for example are mostly weird disjointed jumbles too.

What's an ouroboros?

 

[Krieger66]

IMO, it's mostly the "abandoned" choice, and even then, it's generally only to be replaced in some new, more insane way. And on Erebus, there ARE giant glowing beings telling you to hurt yourself.

And yes, that event would have been evil, absolutely. My point is that anything that is TRULY chaotic, which I view OO as qualifying for, would then be just as liable to turn around and rescue that cute kitten in the tree as they are to burn that town over there to the ground.

Chaotic Evil desires destruction of creation. Chaotic Evil is AV... NOT OO.

Ok maybe they are neutral evil. Shoggi's right though this isn't FFh2...so the giant glowing hamster upstairs can decide if their evil or not.

I could quote Feuerbach and argue that religion didn't "guide society and establish firm societal mores" but that humans projected their inherent ethic code onto religion, but I don't even need to.

Or the social/structural needs of humanity created religion, which then evolved over the centuries with the changes in human society(i.e. more pacifistic, and less extreme guiding moral codes).

You are talking about the past even if I wanted to remove religion from the 16th century I can't, your argument is completely beside the point (anybody who thinks past achievements are relevant to this discussion can feel free to move to the absolute monarchy of his/her choice).
Fact is as we speak the belief in a magic man in the sky causes the spread of HIV in Africa, homophobia, gender inequality, racism, genocide, terrorism, various forms of individual suffering (think of the aftermath of the "rapture" in America) and the denial of scientific facts.

Your judging a religion based on people who used it to cling to power, I mean you might as well cite a corrupt elected official and use him/her to prove that democracy is a failure. Look at Adolf Hitler, he acted like an absolute monarch but did not follow a religion(in fact he is alot like the mechanos in that he had any temples he occupied destroyed). He's an absolute ruler with values more based in atheism than a religion.
I know MJ is dead, but that doesn't neccesarilly mean he now resides in the sky(though thats probably his afterlife of choice).

What's an ouroboros?

The guys who gave me the fire crystal in ocarina of time?

 

[Tasunke]

an ouroboros is a snake that is eating its own tail.

 

[Krieger66]

an ouroboros is a snake that is eating its own tail.

And thats why I don't like trivia...

 

[Valkrionn]

I think I actually nailed down the evil in OO thou. The thing is, I see it pretty much as an equal opportunity religion with little strings attached. Compare it to the others for a moment.

The Order, FOL and Empyrean all require you to fallow their rules pray their way and general live the life they demand to give you their powers. AV is not so picky, but this is Erebus and AV worshipers know fully well what they are doing. OO on the other hand seems not to demand that much devotion. If pedia entries for minor leaders are to be believed any old cultist can perform the drowning ritual and stuff like that and their temples and ceremonies resemble pagan rituals with orgies and stuff more than they do traditional closed minded Order worship. So in essence it is power with very little strings attached. I can see how that can and will attract a lot of evil people without making the religion it self evil.

Point conceded.

Precisely. Hell, even Order has evil priests (and a hell of a lot of them); Power attracts evil.

I could quote Feuerbach and argue that religion didn't "guide society and establish firm societal mores" but that humans projected their inherent ethic code onto religion, but I don't even need to.

You are talking about the past even if I wanted to remove religion from the 16th century I can't, your argument is completely beside the point (anybody who thinks past achievements are relevant to this discussion can feel free to move to the absolute monarchy of his/her choice).
Fact is as we speak the belief in a magic man in the sky causes the spread of HIV in Africa, homophobia, gender inequality, racism, genocide, terrorism, various forms of individual suffering (think of the aftermath of the "rapture" in America) and the denial of scientific facts.

People are free to belief whatever, but I'm afraid I don't see how people can defend organized religion...


Sorry for derailing the threat so much btw, but some just things need to be said...


On topic: I think Danalin's nightmares being nightmares implies that they are evil to some extend. If he were Junil I could imagine his nightmares being utter chaos but Danalin is a somewhat chaotic deity anyway (which is why some of the more nasty mages sought his protection against Bhaal before her fall)...
I'm looking forward to the changes you'll be making, I just don't think your reasons for them are very well thought out.

And what I said above works here as well.

Religion has had, and continues to have, a good impact on the world.

That does NOT negate the impact of those who use religion to further their own goals, or who warp religion into justifying the extermination of others... Crusades, Inquisition, Televangelists, all examples of evil people or people twisting religion.

My main point here is simply this. The examples you quoted, yes, can be drawn back to religion... But they can also be drawn back to a lack of education. Religion itself does not necessarily have to cause problems.

Of course, it does, in occasionally huge ways (just to nail a few, homophobia and denial of scientific facts, refusal of birth control, etc), but many devout people do not suffer any of these, simply because they are intelligent enough to realize that times change, and the religion was founded by men thousands of years ago.

Just to let you know: This argument is coming from a Deist. I do not trust any organized religion or religious text. Nor do I feel much need to define what God is, or if it even exists.

And yes, totally serious about Televangelists being evil. We should ship every last one off to some remote arctic island.

 

[Tasunke]

sigh ... its not very civil to ban someone like that anw ...

 

[Valkrionn]

....Why is this in this thread, rather than either A) the #erebus thread in the main FfH forum, or B) a pm with anw?

 

[Torugu]

Okay, I guess I didn't bring my point across very well.

There is only one reason why I'm opposed to religion and that is because it is a basic template that allows people to stop thinking rationally.*

And does it really do any good? I doubt it. I'm convinced that people who are good for religious reason would be good even if they didn't belief in God. That is just their nature, and to some extend it is human nature.**

So in the end we have a dangerous warping glass that may at times focus rational behavior to be more effective but at all times comes with the danger of allowing people to set themselves completely free from the bounds of reason. "Deus lo vult." is just too convenient an answer. For everything.


*Of course the same can be said about all radical ideologies.

**(Besides I doubt that Mother Theresa for example actually believed in her religion, after all catholicism is the denomination that would send Gandhi to hell for all eternity. She most likely followed her own interpretation of religion, one that was loosely based on her official alignment.)

 

[arcticnightwolf]

sigh ... its not very civil to ban someone like that anw ...

but it made me feel better ... though next time i need to be faster - you managed to send a message before the kick

anyway ... it's also not civil to
a) send Pirates (( AI never goes just out of range of Fireballs - i know it was you ))
b) to claim that there will be "grand" battle, and then go for Tower of Mastery



// just for the record: you were unbanned several minutes later //

 

[Krieger66]

but it made me feel better ... though next time i need to be faster - you managed to send a message before the kick

anyway ... it's also not civil to
a) send Pirates (( AI never goes just out of range of Fireballs ))
b) to claim that there will be "grand" battle, and then go for Tower of Mastery

// just for the record: you were unbanned several minutes later //