[RD] I'm transitioning. If you've ever been confused about the T in LGBT, ask me anything

[emzie]

I don't want to strictly define it. This is a thread for trans folk to offer our personal perspectives on trans stuff. Media representation has gotten better, but most trans representation is still filtered through a cis lense, be it the writer, editor, producer, director, actor, etc... it is nice to be kindly spoken for, but it's better if we're able to speak for ourselves.

Something it should not be, though, is a place for cis people to answer questions posed to trans folk.

 

[Evie]

Just wanted to give a shoutout to Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page), and I figured this thread was suitable. I've been a fan of Page's work for a while now - I think Juno (2007) was the first thing I saw him in, but ReGenesis (2004) later became one of my favorite shows - and I assume coming out must have been a difficult decision.

Regarding the pronoun thing, Page said "he/they" was fine. On a similar question of language, I was listening to an interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates recently, and the interviewer asked him about using "Black" or "African-American" and he basically didn't care. I think he said something like, "Use whichever one you're comfortable with." I get the same sense from Page's public statement, that he doesn't mind if you use "he" or "they" (the obvious implication being "but please don't use 'she' anymore"). I do try to use the inspecific pronouns for nonbinary people, but my brain still hears "they" as being plural, so I appreciate Page letting us use the male pronouns if we want to.

I guess the question of deadnaming has come up already, wrt Page. That must be a particularly vexing issue for celebrities, whose names have professional value as well as personal. And because people might not know who Elliot Page is for a little bit, articles about him will have to say something like I did above - "fka Ellen" - but for how long is reasonable and respectful may not be the same for everybody. To draw another analogy, Rebecca Romijn was referred to as Rebecca Romijn-Stamos for like a decade after her divorce; I think she tried to be patient, but eventually she had to start putting her foot down and asking people in the media to cut it out. I see that IMDb and Wikipedia have both updated Page's name already, but typing his old name into the search box will still get you there, so that's cool.

I was also thinking about the intersection of gender and sexuality again, because Page is married to a woman. I remember listening to an interview with a trans woman - I think it was Janet Mock, but don't hold me to that - who talked about her father struggling to understand her identity when she was young. He referred to her as gay a couple of times, and she said, "Dad, I'm not gay: I like boys", which I guess just confused him. Page's wife is younger and queer herself, so maybe her partner's transition is less challenging for her than it was for Mock's father.

It is a challenge how to express who Elliot is without using the name. In one on one conversations you can probably get it across via context (eg, "Elliot Page, remember, he played the title character in Juno" (if you know or suspect your audience has seen Juno). But for mass

One idea I've discussed with some of the other trans folks in my life is that formerly Credited as, formerly Published as - essentially, reduce it to "this is the name that was associated with this person for that particular accomplishment". Especially in those two cases, that brings the deadname to little more than a form of screen name or nom de plume (or heck, it could even be read as describing a crediting mistake). It also avoids stating that this was ever the right name for them, or their proper name - it just state that this is the name under which they were credited. I think that could be a decent balance between informing the public and implying the deadname was ever valid.

Also, hopping on my trans soapbox to discuss deadnames otherwise:

Not every trans person has a deadname (I mean, technically, I do, but they are parts of my old Quebec-style full name that I never used in the first place. But my former usual first name is *still* very much part of my name, by my own free choice, and it is pointedly not a deadname. Yet I've had others treat it like one anyway - to the point of replacing it with the actual word, "deadname", when referring to or using my full name.

The rule is not NEVER DEADNAME EVER. It's respect the trans person's agency, including using their freaking (not-quite-so-)deadname if they tell you to use it. "Don't use deadnames" is just a good general default practice until you get further indications otherwise.

 

[emzie]

I think that when (and only when) deadnames are relevant to include, the word we use most often for maiden names works well: née.

Somewhere in the world, there's a unique family tree on display with my name on it. It reads Emily Middlename Lastname (née deadname) and I think that's a fine solution.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think that when (and only when) deadnames are relevant to include, the word we use most often for maiden names works well: née.

Somewhere in the world, there's a unique family tree on display with my name on it. It reads Emily Middlename Lastname (née deadname) and I think that's a fine solution.

That's like common sense.

I saw the Elliot thing blow up and had no idea who they were talking about. Or the show.

If you're famous I suppose it makes dead naming harder. You have to get recognized to get work and Elliot's not exactly an A lister.

I think it's mostly the intent behind it.

 

[JohannaK]

So, like, what's the point of this post? Aside from repeating for the third time that you have no idea who this person is or was.

 

[Zardnaar]

So, like, what's the point of this post? Aside from repeating for the third time that you have no idea who this person is or was.

Well I know now. Some leniency is required because at the end if the day it's courtesy not law.

So yeah let me know what you want me to call you that's perfectly fine. I'll do it.

When it comes to public figures however don't crucify me for using a dead name.

If I'm talking to said person directly I'll go with however they want me to address them by.

I'll refer to Emzee however she wants. Exception being if she wants me to use titles (Queen, Empress etc).

 

[Evie]

That's Her Imperial Majestie Emzie to you, peasant.

And jokes aside, as a matter of fact, no, you should not be deadnaming a public figure (except in rare context of clarifying who, and then only possibly and very carefully). Of course, slips of the tongue are understandable and really, so long as there's good indication of good will, that you're really trying, well, that's fine. But if you don't appear to be trying, or worse, appear to be going out of your way not to try...expect to be called out on it.

 

[Zardnaar]

That's Her Imperial Majestie Emzie to you, peasant.

And jokes aside, as a matter of fact, no, you should not be deadnaming a public figure (except in rare context of clarifying who, and then only possibly and very carefully). Of course, slips of the tongue are understandable and really, so long as there's good indication of good will, that you're really trying, well, that's fine. But if you don't appear to be trying, or worse, appear to be going out of your way not to try...expect to be called out on it.

Yeah that's fair enough if you're being a dick about it.

And that's Mr Peasant to the likes of you tyvm.

 

[Kyriakos]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/entertainment/elliot-page-trnd/index.html

I think that "transmale" generally is so close to "female, lesbian" that most people wouldn't really identify it as different - and this likely also means that it is more easily acceptable by the society at large (?).
Probably due to the female body itself not having any organs which can serve as analogous to the other gender's in the sexual act.

That is, of course, unless Page plans to take male hormones and grow a beard. But does he?
If not, imo transmale in this case is only personal, and not something the society actually has practical reason to differentiate from lesbian.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/entertainment/elliot-page-trnd/index.html

I think that "transmale" generally is so close to "female, lesbian" that most people wouldn't really identify it as different - and this likely also means that it is more easily acceptable by the society at large (?).
Probably due to the female body itself not having any organs which can serve as analogous to the other gender's in the sexual act.

That is, of course, unless Page plans to take male hormones and grow a beard. But does he?
If not, imo transmale in this case is only personal, and not something the society actually has practical reason to differentiate from lesbian.

So effectively you're admitting you consider transmales female?

 

[Kyriakos]

So effectively you're admitting you consider transmales female?

No, I said that they are (all) transmale, but imo this is only personal if not combined with taking male hormones.
By personal, in this context, it is meant that others don't get to notice a difference. They may - of course - still identify the other person as they wish, and to identify as the person himself wishes is optimal.

 

[NovaKart]

I saw some people on Twitter saying you shouldn’t use the deadname ever, not even to reference who the person was. So people have to find ways to say it without saying it. Maybe it’s not so difficult with Elliot Page since he’s known mainly for the one movie but in general it seems kind of ridiculous you can’t even say it once to point out who you’re talking about.

 

[Kyriakos]

I saw some people on Twitter saying you shouldn’t use the deadname ever, not even to reference who the person was. So people have to find ways to say it without saying it. Maybe it’s not so difficult with Elliot Page since he’s known mainly for the one movie but in general it seems kind of ridiculous you can’t even say it once to point out who you’re talking about.

Maybe someone can deliberately feign ignorance, to get the other person to use the deadname and then screen-save their post

 

[JohannaK]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/entertainment/elliot-page-trnd/index.html

I think that "transmale" generally is so close to "female, lesbian" that most people wouldn't really identify it as different - and this likely also means that it is more easily acceptable by the society at large (?).
Probably due to the female body itself not having any organs which can serve as analogous to the other gender's in the sexual act.

That is, of course, unless Page plans to take male hormones and grow a beard. But does he?
If not, imo transmale in this case is only personal, and not something the society actually has practical reason to differentiate from lesbian.

Transmale: male, regardless of sexual orientation
Lesbian: homosexual woman.

No difference at all.

 

[JohannaK]

I have no patience for people barging in here to engage in bigotry.

 

[IglooDame]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/12/01/entertainment/elliot-page-trnd/index.html

I think that "transmale" generally is so close to "female, lesbian" that most people wouldn't really identify it as different - and this likely also means that it is more easily acceptable by the society at large (?).
Probably due to the female body itself not having any organs which can serve as analogous to the other gender's in the sexual act.

That is, of course, unless Page plans to take male hormones and grow a beard. But does he?
If not, imo transmale in this case is only personal, and not something the society actually has practical reason to differentiate from lesbian.

Aside from anything else... er, everything else... gender is recorded pretty much everywhere and sexual preference is rarely recorded anywhere. So that differentiation is pretty much required.

 

[Evie]

Yeah. "What gender are you" is a FAR more important societal distinction than "what is your orientation".

And that's not even getting into the hot stinking mess that are the binary gendered languages (I love French, but man is that language a constant barrage of psychological violence on Trans people, doubly so if non-binary). In English it's not so big a deal, but in French you have to proclaim your gender for almost every single word refering to you. Can't say "I think I'm a good lawyer", you have to say "I think I'm a she-good she-lawyer" (or he-good he-lawyer as the case may be).

Establishing your gender is kind of sort of REALLY important in those languages.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Elliot Page got me thinking some more about names. Do many people choose a new name that's reminiscent of or similar to their birth name? Is that a tradition, or is it all over the map, some do, some don't?

One idea I've discussed with some of the other trans folks in my life is that formerly Credited as, formerly Published as - essentially, reduce it to "this is the name that was associated with this person for that particular accomplishment". Especially in those two cases, that brings the deadname to little more than a form of screen name or nom de plume (or heck, it could even be read as describing a crediting mistake). It also avoids stating that this was ever the right name for them, or their proper name - it just state that this is the name under which they were credited. I think that could be a decent balance between informing the public and implying the deadname was ever valid.

I think that when (and only when) deadnames are relevant to include, the word we use most often for maiden names works well: née.

Wikipedia has their "Born:" info that covers people whose name has changed for any reason (e.g. Cassius Clay, or Frederick Austerlitz). In the case of online databases, this can all be behind-the-scenes. So at least in some places the problem is already addressed. Type "Marion Morrison" into Wikipedia's search window, for example.

@Evie raised a question in my mind, though: Is there a consensus yet in the community about using a deadname when specifically referencing the individual's life before they transitioned and/or came out? That hadn't occurred to me before. I'm thinking particularly for celebrities who came out mid-career. Is it reasonable to continue to refer to "Bruce" Jenner's Olympic accomplishments? Should one use quotation marks, as I just did? Under the highlights of the 1976 Olympics, Wikipedia is with @emzie: "Caitlyn Jenner (born William Bruce Jenner) won the gold medal for decathlon, setting a world record of 8,634 points."

When it comes to pronouns, my first thought was that you could dodge the issue by using the non-gender-specific pronouns, but then it occurred to me that some transgender people wouldn't want to be referred to as nonbinary. For example, Nicole Maines and Janet Mock are both very feminine, to my eye, and I would feel weird using nongendered pronouns when talking about them. I guess I don't know if I can assume that Jenner (or anyone) would be cool with the nongendered pronouns. In the case of celebrities, I suppose a journalist can call their publicist and ask what the person's preference is, but for the rest of us, is there a rule-of-thumb to apply yet?

Some time ago, I remember a cis-woman saying she preferred the term "actor" instead of "actress." I want to say it was Olivia Wilde, but don't quote me. She said, "We don't refer to women who are doctors as 'doctresses.'" It's not a bad point, but I wonder if a trans-woman might flinch a little at being referred to as an actor, where a cis-woman wouldn't notice, or even might prefer it? I'm not sure how many professions have gendered terms like that, anyway, so maybe it's academic.


Footnote wrt Elliot Page: It's been confirmed that The Umbrella Academy will get a 3rd season and that Page will continue to play Vanya. At first I wondered if Page would want to continue to play a woman onscreen, but to my recollection, Vanya's gender wasn't ever an important aspect of the character, so deciding that they're nonbinary or transgender shouldn't make any difference, I don't think. The character always dressed in suits anyway, even in the comic the series is based on, and "Vanya" is a non-gender-specific name. So I suppose there's no need to even cross that bridge, unless they feel like it.

 

[IglooDame]

Elliot Page got me thinking some more about names. Do many people choose a new name that's reminiscent of or similar to their birth name? Is that a tradition, or is it all over the map, some do, some don't?

Great question. From what I've seen so far directly (couple dozen cases?) it's all over the map.

To give you an idea of it, if you went into witness protection (or contrive some other circumstance involving you being unhappy with your former life) and couldn't/wouldn't use your existing first name, what would you pick, and more importantly, why?

 

[Evie]

I kept my everyday initials intact so that GHJ would still be me (hence Guillaume -> Geneviève) but the two are otherwise unrelated. And as previously discussed Guillaume is still one part of my full name.

General rule is to assume that the name and pronoun changes are retroactive; that the person's proper noun and pronouns should always have been Elliot and he/they or Geneviève and she. So "I liked Elliot Page's work on Juno" or "from age 6 to 11 Geneviève attended such and such school".

That said the first rule is agency: the above is a general rule of thumb; if told otherwise by a trans person you do otherwise for that trans person.