[RD] I'm transitioning. If you've ever been confused about the T in LGBT, ask me anything

[Manfred Belheim]

Feel free to lambast me for my offensive ignorance once again, but further to my last question I have just seen someone who lists their pronouns as "she/they".

Last time I asked about it I was told that the "word/word" structure was just to make it clear that it was about pronouns, and that just saying "he" (for example) would not make that clear. I was asking if there was more to it than that. So either this person I've just seen is doing it wrong, or there is indeed more to it than that. If someone lists their pronouns as "she/they" I genuinely, honestly have no idea how to interpret that or how to address them. In this case does this mean that they sometimes identify as female, and sometimes as non-binary? In that case the slash has a different meaning to when something like "he/his" is used?

Can you see how maybe this actually is confusing for someone who is not inured in it, and screaming at them for being confused by it is perhaps not the best response?

I gave you a clear and non-hostile answer that you are choosing to ignore. Instead, you offer two dick references and a double entendre for anal sex? You protest too much.

I didn't ignore it btw emzie, I was just replying to someone else who was putting me off even bothering trying to talk about it. I have no idea what the double entendre for anal sex is that you're referring to (or what relevance "dick references" have).

 

[Cloud_Strife]

You're approaching this in a binary way; you can be female (or in this case femme) and still identify as non-binary, it's a spectrum, not a simple catch all term.

That's why there's such a varience of genders and differing descriptions of each one

Can you see how maybe this actually is confusing for someone who is not inured in it, and screaming at them for being confused by it is perhaps not the best response?

The problem is that people can read your previous posts on this topic and related ones and come to their own, probably negative, view on your stance towards transpeople and gender in general.

 

[sophie]

In this case does this mean that they sometimes identify as female, and sometimes as non-binary? In that case the slash has a different meaning to when something like "he/his" is used.

She preferred, they also acceptable. Or either can be used interchangeably. Could mean they're genderfluid but never identify with masc pronouns. Could mean they're demi. It's still conveying the same information as emzie set down (i.e. locking in that the statement is about pronoun usage), but also layering extra info on top. Language is pretty neat like that.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Thank you.

I still hope you can see that sometimes using "nominative pronoun/objective pronoun", and other times using "preferred nominative pronoun/acceptable alternative nominative pronoun", is a source of confusion, or at least something that's not intuitively obvious.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

or at least something that's not intuitively obvious.

I think that's the point behind listing the preferred pronouns after their name.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Thank you.

I still hope you can see that sometimes using "nominative pronoun/objective pronoun", and other times using "preferred nominative pronoun/acceptable alternative nominative pronoun", is a source of confusion, or at least something that's not intuitively obvious.

So if someone called Finnlay told you he prefered to be called "Finn" but would also settle for "Finnlay" would you understand the analogy

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I think that's the point behind listing the preferred pronouns after their name.

I meant not intuitively obvious how to interpret it.

 

[hobbsyoyo]

I meant not intuitively obvious how to interpret it.

I know, you can be lead to the water but no one can force you to drink it. That's fine as long as you aren't actively rude about it - like the people who know with certainty the gender another person is presenting as and they still deadname them.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I know, you can be lead to the water but no one can force you to drink it.

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. I was very unclear as to what the syntax fully meant and asked for an explanation before. Today I saw something that didn't fit with the previous explanation and confused me further so I asked again. In the process trying to point out exactly why it's not intuitive to me. No-one's leading me to any water and I'm not refusing to drink it. I'm asking for directions to the water hole.

That's fine as long as you aren't actively rude about it - like the people who know with certainty the gender another person is presenting as and they still deadname them.

I don't see how this is pertinent either. As far as I'm aware I'm not doing that by asking how the particular syntax of pronoun announcements work, or even getting close to doing that.

 

[aimeeandbeatles]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. I was very unclear as to what the syntax fully meant and asked for an explanation before. Today I saw something that didn't fit with the previous explanation and confused me further so I asked again. In the process trying to point out exactly why it's not intuitive to me. No-one's leading me to any water and I'm not refusing to drink it. I'm asking for directions to the water hole.

No, you're being deliberately obstinate.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Not quite sure what you're getting at here. I was very unclear as to what the syntax fully meant and asked for an explanation before. Today I saw something that didn't fit with the previous explanation and confused me further so I asked again. In the process trying to point out exactly why it's not intuitive to me. No-one's leading me to any water and I'm not refusing to drink it. I'm asking for directions to the water hole.



I don't see how this is pertinent either. As far as I'm aware I'm not doing that by asking how the particular syntax of pronoun announcements work, or even getting close to doing that.

See:

So if someone called Finnlay told you he prefered to be called "Finn" but would also settle for "Finnlay" would you understand the analogy

@Manfred Belheim

 

[Manfred Belheim]

No, you're being deliberately obstinate.

About what? I've said thanks for the explanation and understand it better now (sort of). I still think it's confusing and don't see why I shouldn't say so, but there's not really anything more I want to say about it beyond that.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I don't know man people have broken it down for you

 

[EgonSpengler]

Just wanted to give a shoutout to Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page), and I figured this thread was suitable. I've been a fan of Page's work for a while now - I think Juno (2007) was the first thing I saw him in, but ReGenesis (2004) later became one of my favorite shows - and I assume coming out must have been a difficult decision.

Regarding the pronoun thing, Page said "he/they" was fine. On a similar question of language, I was listening to an interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates recently, and the interviewer asked him about using "Black" or "African-American" and he basically didn't care. I think he said something like, "Use whichever one you're comfortable with." I get the same sense from Page's public statement, that he doesn't mind if you use "he" or "they" (the obvious implication being "but please don't use 'she' anymore"). I do try to use the inspecific pronouns for nonbinary people, but my brain still hears "they" as being plural, so I appreciate Page letting us use the male pronouns if we want to.

I guess the question of deadnaming has come up already, wrt Page. That must be a particularly vexing issue for celebrities, whose names have professional value as well as personal. And because people might not know who Elliot Page is for a little bit, articles about him will have to say something like I did above - "fka Ellen" - but for how long is reasonable and respectful may not be the same for everybody. To draw another analogy, Rebecca Romijn was referred to as Rebecca Romijn-Stamos for like a decade after her divorce; I think she tried to be patient, but eventually she had to start putting her foot down and asking people in the media to cut it out. I see that IMDb and Wikipedia have both updated Page's name already, but typing his old name into the search box will still get you there, so that's cool.

I was also thinking about the intersection of gender and sexuality again, because Page is married to a woman. I remember listening to an interview with a trans woman - I think it was Janet Mock, but don't hold me to that - who talked about her father struggling to understand her identity when she was young. He referred to her as gay a couple of times, and she said, "Dad, I'm not gay: I like boys", which I guess just confused him. Page's wife is younger and queer herself, so maybe her partner's transition is less challenging for her than it was for Mock's father.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just wanted to give a shoutout to Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page), and I figured this thread was suitable. I've been a fan of Page's work for a while now - I think Juno (2007) was the first thing I saw him in, but ReGenesis (2004) later became one of my favorite shows - and I assume coming out must have been a difficult decision.

Regarding the pronoun thing, Page said "he/they" was fine. On a similar question of language, I was listening to an interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates recently, and the interviewer asked him about using "Black" or "African-American" and he basically didn't care. I think he said something like, "Use whichever one you're comfortable with." I get the same sense from Page's public statement, that he doesn't mind if you use "he" or "they" (the obvious implication being "but please don't use 'she' anymore"). I do try to use the inspecific pronouns for nonbinary people, but my brain still hears "they" as being plural, so I appreciate Page letting us use the male pronouns if we want to.

I guess the question of deadnaming has come up already, wrt Page. That must be a particularly vexing issue for celebrities, whose names have professional value as well as personal. And because people might not know who Elliot Page is for a little bit, articles about him will have to say something like I did above - "fka Ellen" - but for how long is reasonable and respectful may not be the same for everybody. To draw another analogy, Rebecca Romijn was referred to as Rebecca Romijn-Stamos for like a decade after her divorce; I think she tried to be patient, but eventually she had to start putting her foot down and asking people in the media to cut it out. I see that IMDb and Wikipedia have both updated Page's name already, but typing his old name into the search box will still get you there, so that's cool.

I was also thinking about the intersection of gender and sexuality again, because Page is married to a woman. I remember listening to an interview with a trans woman - I think it was Janet Mock, but don't hold me to that - who talked about her father struggling to understand her identity when she was young. He referred to her as gay a couple of times, and she said, "Dad, I'm not gay: I like boys", which I guess just confused him. Page's wife is younger and queer herself, so maybe her partner's transition is less challenging for her than it was for Mock's father.

Way I look at is the intention behind it.

I didn't know who the actor was under either name.

So if you're famous you're gonna get dead named otherwise no one will know who the hell people are talking about.

 

[Zelig]

On-Topic Question:
As a teacher, I have students who I assume are trans because the name they use in class seems differently gendered than the name on the official roster. I use the name a student gives me (rather than the roster name), and it doesn't cause any problems - the "official name" never comes up. However, we are now using Microsoft Teams for class, with some students attending virtually and some attending in person. We are stuck with "official names" as our labels there, and I have no control over that. Are there things that I can do to help students feel more comfortable in my class when the computer insists on using the wrong name for them, besides consistently using the correct name?

If it's an adult, I'm going to call someone by whatever Teams says their name is. The user has delegated responsibility of telling me their name to the software. If it's a child, it seems that your employer has decreed that children don't have the authority to choose their own names.

 

[Zardnaar]

If it's an adult, I'm going to call someone by whatever Teams says their name is. The user has delegated responsibility of telling me their name to the software. If it's a child, it seems that your employer has decreed that children don't have the authority to choose their own names.

Until they turn 18 they don't.

 

[CKS]

If it's an adult, I'm going to call someone by whatever Teams says their name is. The user has delegated responsibility of telling me their name to the software. If it's a child, it seems that your employer has decreed that children don't have the authority to choose their own names.

No, my students have all told me their names, and I call all my students by the names they give me. My employer won't allow changes to the names that my employer put into Teams and other software.

 

[Birdjaguar]

IIRC this is supposed to be more of a Q&A thread than anything else. But Emzie/Cloud strife should weigh in on the matter.

 

[Arakhor]

Indeed it is.