Just wanted to give a shoutout to Elliot Page (formerly Ellen Page), and I figured this thread was suitable. I've been a fan of Page's work for a while now - I think Juno (2007) was the first thing I saw him in, but ReGenesis (2004) later became one of my favorite shows - and I assume coming out must have been a difficult decision.
Regarding the pronoun thing, Page said "he/they" was fine. On a similar question of language, I was listening to an interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates recently, and the interviewer asked him about using "Black" or "African-American" and he basically didn't care. I think he said something like, "Use whichever one you're comfortable with." I get the same sense from Page's public statement, that he doesn't mind if you use "he" or "they" (the obvious implication being "but please don't use 'she' anymore"). I do try to use the inspecific pronouns for nonbinary people, but my brain still hears "they" as being plural, so I appreciate Page letting us use the male pronouns if we want to.
I guess the question of deadnaming has come up already, wrt Page. That must be a particularly vexing issue for celebrities, whose names have professional value as well as personal. And because people might not know who Elliot Page is for a little bit, articles about him will have to say something like I did above - "fka Ellen" - but for how long is reasonable and respectful may not be the same for everybody. To draw another analogy, Rebecca Romijn was referred to as Rebecca Romijn-Stamos for like a decade after her divorce; I think she tried to be patient, but eventually she had to start putting her foot down and asking people in the media to cut it out. I see that IMDb and Wikipedia have both updated Page's name already, but typing his old name into the search box will still get you there, so that's cool.
I was also thinking about the intersection of gender and sexuality again, because Page is married to a woman. I remember listening to an interview with a trans woman - I think it was Janet Mock, but don't hold me to that - who talked about her father struggling to understand her identity when she was young. He referred to her as gay a couple of times, and she said, "Dad, I'm not gay: I like boys", which I guess just confused him. Page's wife is younger and queer herself, so maybe her partner's transition is less challenging for her than it was for Mock's father.
For celebrities, I think that something like a notice such as "Elliot Page (formerly/born as...)" at the beginning of a biographical outline would be best, but for current news, eventually, the "formerly/born as..." notice should be gradually phased out, as references to his gender must have become ubiquitous at some point.
[I'll just mention that I'm somewhat happy to see that we have 'mainstream' transman representation, as much as the idea of representation can be somewhat dubious.]
I saw some people on Twitter saying you shouldn’t use the deadname ever, not even to reference who the person was. So people have to find ways to say it without saying it. Maybe it’s not so difficult with Elliot Page since he’s known mainly for the one movie but in general it seems kind of ridiculous you can’t even say it once to point out who you’re talking about.
I think it's
fine to refer to a deadname when introducing a person to someone they've known before under it, (e.g, "Oh hey, that's Elliot Page (formerly Ellen) from Juno, you remember that movie?"). But if you're introducing someone completely unacquainted with that person (e.g, "This is Elliot Page, he plays this movie, Juno."), why would you bother mentioning their deadname?
Elliot Page got me thinking some more about names. Do many people choose a new name that's reminiscent of or similar to their birth name? Is that a tradition, or is it all over the map, some do, some don't?
As always, that depends on the trans person in question. I have seen plenty of people adopt a name similar to theirs, but it's very far from being a tradition, such as these exist within the trans community. In fact, I would personally say that a break with the deadname is far more common than to adopt one similar to it. I certainly sympathise with that, as I have given myself a name that is pretty far from my old one, which had some unfortunate, tree-related associations.
@Evie raised a question in my mind, though: Is there a consensus yet in the community about using a deadname when specifically referencing the individual's life before they transitioned and/or came out? That hadn't occurred to me before. I'm thinking particularly for celebrities who came out mid-career. Is it reasonable to continue to refer to "Bruce" Jenner's Olympic accomplishments? Should one use quotation marks, as I just did? Under the highlights of the 1976 Olympics, Wikipedia is with
@emzie: "Caitlyn Jenner (born William Bruce Jenner) won the gold medal for decathlon, setting a world record of 8,634 points."
When it comes to pronouns, my first thought was that you could dodge the issue by using the non-gender-specific pronouns, but then it occurred to me that some transgender people wouldn't want to be referred to as nonbinary. For example, Nicole Maines and Janet Mock are both very feminine, to my eye, and I would feel weird using nongendered pronouns when talking about them. I guess I don't know if I can assume that Jenner (or anyone) would be cool with the nongendered pronouns. In the case of celebrities, I suppose a journalist can call their publicist and ask what the person's preference is, but for the rest of us, is there a rule-of-thumb to apply yet?
Some time ago, I remember a cis-woman saying she preferred the term "actor" instead of "actress." I want to say it was Olivia Wilde, but don't quote me. She said, "We don't refer to women who are doctors as 'doctresses.'" It's not a bad point, but I wonder if a trans-woman might flinch a little at being referred to as an actor, where a cis-woman wouldn't notice, or even might prefer it? I'm not sure how many professions have gendered terms like that, anyway, so maybe it's academic.
No, I personally do not think that the quotations should be used, for the simple fact that the deadname is still employed, and it would appear rather strange. Again, as I've mentioned a single mention at the beginning of whatever article it is about their achievements and/or biography would suffice. It is completely unnecessary, and frankly, lowkey insulting, if every sentence with their name had the disclaimer that they were born XXXX and now they're YYYY. At least in Wikipedia, it seems most references seem to just use his surname, instead of mentioning his first name, which is...fine.
And no - they should
not use gender-neutral pronouns for people who identify as a binary transwoman/transman, because that's misgendering, and majority of trans people would consider it such if someone avoids referring to them by their preferred pronouns (whether they're masculine or feminine) in favour of gender-neutral pronouns (i.e, they/them). If you wish a simple rule of thumb, I would say...Just ask. We're happy to answer you. The last thing that we desire is confusion. Please don't call us by anything else than what we've specified, and don't try any kind of "dodging".
Finally, at least in English - as emzie pointed out above your post - this isn't a real problem, as very few professions tend to have such a gendered nature, which is more a historical artifact than anything else. Outside of English. that is not quite the case, and I can collaborate that in Bulgarian, a lot of these words are very much gendered.
What do you all think of the recent court decision in the UK on puberty blockers?
A simply barbarous decision that will ruin the childhoods of hundreds, if not thousands of kids. I have never been a person who wishes to have lived out my childhood as my desired gender (for the simple fact that I do not wish to relive my childhood for frankly unrelated to gender issues), but to take away that possibility is simply monstrous. One would like to think this would weigh heavily on the minds of the judges. but such an illusion is foolish.
Does this mean if someone takes puberty blockers and then HRT there’s a risk of infertility? I had heard something like this.
HRT, as others have mentioned, essentially comes with a built-in risk of infertility on its own; not just by taking puberty blockers. It is unfortunate, especially for those trans people who desire to have children.
Does this mean that brain development, muscle development, and height aren't as intertwined with puberty as we think? Like if someone's on puberty blockers, will they still "grow up"?
If I'm not wrong, puberty blockers do not actually interact with the body's growth hormones, only with E/T, but I am open to being corrected. Even if they do, I do not think they impact it in a major way, certainly not brain/muscle development.
A very general question:
Are there by now any standard/popular/often mentioned "idols" (so to speak; in an analogous way that many cis teens have idols) specifically for T? (it doesn't have to be that such idols, if they exist, are T themselves; just asking if anything of the kind is known/sufficiently popular)
I'm not sure if I can answer the question with proper names, but in general, I think trans people are fond of people who, in the face of adversity (often disability) have created great things. And this isn't really in the passive sense of, "wow, amazing!", but really emphasizing with their pains and their struggles.
Out of curiosity, how well known is
Wendy Carlos in the trans community?
Probably the first "trans person" I was aware of after watching a documentary on Kubrick's movies and her soundtracks for them.
So, this is a bit of an interesting question. I'm in a musical community of sorts, and most of the trans people there (and we're talking about at least >10 people) knew of her, and held her in great respect, especially wrt her accomplishments in making synth music more popular. I guess it varies on the interests of trans people, and if I may just slightly go on a tangent, but the Internet has been a real treasure for trans musicians (both in (re-)discovering them (like Wendy Carlos), however also in giving them a far greater platform to spread their music, and contact fellow souls), and if there is interest, I would be willing to share some of my friends' music on here.
