Immortal level Shadow game - Shaka of Zululand

[Peacefanatic]

Think you have to settle 1e of the plains hill now, an extra hammer always makes for a nice start but gold should be more important.
Gold is also sweet with 2x 6 tiles.

We would lose 2 turns to settle there. Also we would only have 6 grassland tiles that way. Do you think that is the best option?
The spots I marked on the map are bad?

With regards to telling your rough position on the equator, another way to tell is to look at forests. In order of poles to equator, forests take the form of snow-capped pine trees (I...think those are pine trees), regular pines, oak trees (the more circular trees 2N of the Gold), and finally Jungle. Usually your position on the map is relatively obvious, as in this case where there's a snow-capped pine forest to your south so close to the southern pole, but rarely the best hint you'll get is that there's (for example) pines to your north and oaks to your south. In that case you're on in the northern hemisphere, roughly between the equator and the poles.

Damn, that's nice. I would never think about that.

 

[lymond]

Why do you say this lymond? I was thinking about a cottage city. Am I wrong?


Where exactly are you thinking about settling? What do you think about the spots I marked on the map?

I think My has the right plan with 1E of PH...might as well get that gold with all that food...wet wheat! Makes one reconsider AH early

Pretty much wherever you settled in this vicinity, it would not be a cottage capital. Cottages go on river tiles..there's no rivers. Ulundi will be great food and production early for getting out cities and stuff...and the gold for early beakers. Palace can be moved to better spot later.

2 moves okay for a better opening spot. Ulundi has plenty of stuff to work with for what the city will be...and it won't be using cottages

 

[sampsa]

Think you have to settle 1e of the plains hill now

Dunno Fips, I think it leads to T18 worker (no 3 yield tile on first ring, so loses extra turn) which feels rough especially with an EXP leader. Though certainly getting all those 3 sweet tiles makes something up...

 

[Fippy]

True, could also ph settle and grab gold + share corn or pigs with city 2.

 

[krikav]

I think I would go with on the PH still. I'm not overly crazy about gold early on. (I do agree that it's less of a problem with this abundance of food though).

If there is a need for quick early commerce, I would go with a second city 1N of gold (borrowing capitals corn).
Will get the gold in capitals third ring anyway, so the happines will be secured when its needed.
Very ackward position too, having a worker go merry-go-round around the lake to reach it.

@Peacefanatic Settling NE of the settlers starting position I don't like. Move north inlands and stake out that land!

 

[sampsa]

I also think plains hill is the best spot, though I don't think 1N or 1NE are bad. 1E of plains hill is a bit too slow for my taste, but certainly playable.

 

[krikav]

Saw that I missed a few questions:

Regarding the 5T beakers.
All beakers you would produce the first 4 turns are saved in a magical box.
If you choose a tech at T5 or earlier, all those beakers are put into the tech you choose.
If you refrain from choosing, you will start T6 with no beakers in your magical box, but instead those beakers will be allocated to a "random" tech. Some tech that the AI deems fitting (I think it's one of the two in the tips "Recommended").

Yes, Ivory and silk etc are closer to the middle of the map, nearer the jungle.

 

[Peacefanatic]

Pretty much wherever you settled in this vicinity, it would not be a cottage capital. Cottages go on river tiles..there's no rivers.

Pretty much most early cities that have lots of green tiles will be cottage cities in my games, regardless of being on river or not. Do you think this is a wrong move? I like to have cities that will work cottages from the very beggining of the game so the will mature quicker.

Palace can be moved to better spot later.

I believe I have never moved the Palace to another city in my games, probably another miskate that I usually do.

Settling NE of the settlers starting position I don't like. Move north inlands and stake out that land!

Why not? It seems like a fine spot to me, but I guess everybody here disagrees.

1E of plains hill is a bit too slow for my taste, but certainly playable.

sampsa why do you think that 1E of PH is slower then PH? In terms of speed they seem pretty much the same to me. But 1E of PH seems better to me since we can work Gold for commerce.

All beakers you would produce the first 4 turns are saved in a magical box.
If you choose a tech at T5 or earlier, all those beakers are put into the tech you choose.
If you refrain from choosing, you will start T6 with no beakers in your magical box, but instead those beakers will be allocated to a "random" tech. Some tech that the AI deems fitting (I think it's one of the two in the tips "Recommended").

krikav, just to make sure I understand, so you have only 4 turns to not research anything and still be able to choose where to put those beakers? Does this only work for the first turns of any game or does it work anytime in the game?

Yes, Ivory and silk etc are closer to the middle of the map, nearer the jungle.

So jungles are always in the middle of the map?

 

[Peacefanatic]

Ok, so I played one more turn and moved the Settler 1E of PH and the Scout to that mine to the east. Now we are far from the sheep and stone to the south.
Where do you guys think I should move the scout? I was thinking about checking the land to the North.
Also what should be our research path? Mining-TW right away?

Below is a screenshot of the new map:

Spoiler :

 

[Olafeson]

I agree, settling 1 N makes sense. Saves forest, grabs pigs and more land. Looks like you are in the very south of the map. So it is unlikely that someone will contest the tundra to the south. Also allows for another city 1S of the sheep to share the food.

You have a lot of food and not really good land for cottaging. Makes a play for the pyramids and early CoL attractive. Rep + caste system would let you tech good and lots of GPP.

Early tech path would be tricky if you choose to go for the pyramids. You would need a lot of tech after AH if you decide to go for pyramids. In any case i would scout the stone soon.

Mining + BW + Masonry + TW + fishing. Not sure in which order would be best. If you dont go for mids, better settle stuff to the north to block land.

 

[Peacefanatic]

Just a quick heads-up, I played one more turn and I don't believe that 1E of PH is a good spot. It will take 20 turns to build a worker, I know that as soon as we get a border pop it will run faster but still it will take a long time. Do you guys think it's worth it? But if we settle in the PH we will lose the gold. I'm not confident that any of those places are good spots. What am I missing here?

I agree, settling 1 N makes sense. Saves forest, grabs pigs and more land. Looks like you are in the very south of the map. So it is unlikely that someone will contest the tundra to the south. Also allows for another city 1S of the sheep to share the food.

If we would settle there where do you think it would be a good place for our second city?

You have a lot of food and not really good land for cottaging. Makes a play for the pyramids and early CoL attractive. Rep + caste system would let you tech good and lots of GPP.

Even without being Philosophic? So you are planning on going for a SE economy?

 

[Fippy]

You are missing that you still improved your position very much, compared to settling where you started
16t worker with gold, very true that's annoying. But wet corn and gold are 2 great tiles, and worth moving.
PH gives 5t faster worker, and it's difficult calculating which will be better long-term.
Both are well above average spots.

 

[sampsa]

sampsa why do you think that 1E of PH is slower then PH? In terms of speed they seem pretty much the same to me. But 1E of PH seems better to me since we can work Gold for commerce.

They are far from the same. PH-location builds a worker in 11T and 1E of PH in 16T 17T, so a huge 5T 6T head start and +1 ad infinitum.

 

[Olafeson]

I think AH - Mining would be a good play. The gold mine is nice but can wait some turns. The pig is such a good tile and you want to pump out some workers/settlers.

Definetly settle where you are now. PH are nice, but not if you lose a gold mine for them. Especially since you would have to waste another turn.

In this case i think i have to disagree with krikav. I don t think it was necessary to move 2 turns just to block more land and gamble for a better capital. Surely you got the gold, which is nice but was a huge gamble. especially since your capital had a food resources which also could have been shared with another city.

You play on immortal, so A.I. has no extra settler. It is not necessary to move so far just to desperately try to secure more land. Especially when your initial spot was pretty good.

You lost the stone, now pyramids are out of the window. Also settling 1 N of starting location would have granted traderout connection via coast to the city spot 1S of the sheep. Well i think it was a waste to move 2 turns, not even sure if the new capital is better than the one 1 N of starting location. You also lost a lot of forests that are very valuable in the early game.

Another problem could be barbs from the tundra in the south now. Usually barbs on immortal and on pangaea not too scary but i think in tbhis case they can become a problem.

 

[sampsa]

You lost the stone, now pyramids are out of the window.

Oh come on, nearly guaranteed Mids if you just want them. Let's not confuse OP too much.

 

[Peacefanatic]

You are missing that you still improved your position very much, compared to settling where you started

I guess I just can't see it yet.

But wet corn and gold are 2 great tiles, and worth moving.

What does wet corn means? That corn does not get +1 commerce.

PH gives 5t faster worker, and it's difficult calculating which will be better long-term.

I don't believe that is a good spot. There isn't any commerce tiles to work, it seems to me that it will be a slow research spot, but I can probably be wrong.

They are far from the same. PH-location builds a worker in 11T and 1E of PH in 16T 17T, so a huge 5T 6T head start and +1 ad infinitum.

But how about commerce? It seems to me that the PH spot will take forever to research anything.

I think AH - Mining would be a good play.

I'm going that path then. I tried to do that 5 turn without research thing but I did it wrong. All the research went to archery, so I loaded autosave and just researched AH right away.

Another problem could be barbs from the tundra in the south now.

I always neglect barb defense and I have lost cities before because of that.


So I played a few more turns, until we got a border pop. The situation now is: 7 turns to AH, 2 AIs met (Asoka and Zara Yaqob) and 12 turns for worker.
Asoka is right next to us but it seems like we have lots of land to settle. Additionally we have ivory east of our city, so maybe we can plan for elepults.
krikav said that ivorys are closer to the middle of the map, so it seems that we are more to the middle of the map then we thought.
So where do you people think I should move the scout now? What are your thoughts for the near future of our game?

A few screenshots:

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

 

[krikav]

I don't like 1E of PH, but I don't usually like gold much either.
On the PH Is an awesome city site, since you gain a extra hammer and therefor get your worker out quicker.
If in this game you SIP, you get a worker out ready to do something at T15.
If you wander your settler up for two turns and then settle on the PH on T2, you produce your worker in 12 turns, and he sees the light of the day T14.
Hence you have miraculasly gained a turn by moving!

The move upward is good because it secures way more land for you, land that would have been contested by the AI.
Almost everything in this game is optional, but land isn't and I gladly sacrifice alot to make sure I get more than my fair share.

The site is also on a hill, providing extra defense bonus in case you encounter some psyco and need to turtle up.
You also don't "lose" the gold by settling on the PH, you have it firmly in your capitals third ring, it would require some small disaster for you not to be able to get that with second or third city.

 

[Olafeson]

Lain's last game was a great example of why taking your time with settling can often be very rewarding, even if it costs another turn moving.

true, but Lain had literally nothing. he had not even an (accesible) food resource in his capital, and only calendar ressources. Peacefanatic had a 4 food resource capital when he settled 1N of SiP. Without even losing a turn.

Let's not confuse OP too much.

Well, i can not see any advantage that he got by moving. If he settles 1E of plains hill, he has to go for 20 turn worker until he gets border pop. Settling 1 E on PH will lose gold and waste another turn. I just do not like it, i think it is very debatable if going on a magical journey with your settler was a good choice on this map.

I still think that going for pyramids + early CoL would have been a solid play (by settling 1 N of SiP). Lots of food for the first cities would have made whipping easy, 4 -> 2 pop whips of granary and library and then run 2 scientists, later more. Also the spot 1 N of SiP had 8 forests that could have been used for chops, new one only has 4.

It is only immortal, there is no desperate rush for land. Anyway, it is still a good spot and if you, krikav, lymond and even fippy think it is a good move, then it probably is.

 

[krikav]

@Peacefanatic
"I tried to do that 5 turn without research thing but I did it wrong. All the research went to archery."

Yes, the beakers where allocated to some tech that the game thought was good for you.
It does that if you have not selected a tech yourself at T5.
Not 5 turns after you settle your city, but on T5.

 

[krikav]

New sitauation now, I would move my scout slowly (1 move per turn, so that he doesn't die) toward the second pig in the west, and fogbust that area.
That second pig is a site I would like to claim, and keeping the lights on there would be a priority.