Immortal level Shadow game - Shaka of Zululand

[Fippy]

true, but Lain had literally nothing. he had not even an (accesible) food resource in his capital, and only calendar ressources. Peacefanatic had a 4 food resource capital when he settled 1N of SiP. Without even losing a turn.

Both Krikav and Sampsa already explained a bit, but it's so really important that i will again
You are not losing any turns by hoping on the ph, cos of worker speed-up.
Instead you gain some development turns, and lose some beakers in return (but we are talking about losing 33% of fishing here or so..

Gold made this more complicated.
We can already see India close, on deity this whole move would be hugely game changing by securing some really good tiles.

 

[krikav]

@Olafeson Settling 1N of SiP was certainly not bad at all, the only crucial thing in this opening was claiming the pigs.
Certainly pyramids could be a solid option here too.

@Peacefanatic You are getting some conflicting advices here, there is very seldom just one way to play a map, and alot boils down to experience and personal preference.
I absolutely don't mind if you discard anything I say, my way of providing help in these threads is to explain as clear as I can how I would have played the map, and if that doesn't translate well to you, I don't take any offense in that.

Also, there is 0 point in you following advice if you do not grasp them. So whenever you are in doubt, just go with what you think at the moment.

If the situation derails completely, you will likely start to get suggestions for "Oh, that wasn't good at all, we suggest you reload and start from AH." and such.

 

[Olafeson]

Not too easy. I think 2nd city would be nice to the west. 1E of pig, blocks asoka completely from settling to the south.

BW - TW after mining? You guys think archery is needed vs barbs? I would put spy points on zara. Both are pretty peaceful guys. Zara usually gets to pleased very fast. I don t think they will declare war (DoW) on you in the early game.

 

[krikav]

Too much depends on if there are horses and where they might be, so speculations of what to do after AH goes right out the window once AH is done.

I would not go archery due to AGG, and I see loads of good outposts for brave cover promoted warriors, but I really like fighting it out with warriors too...
Point on Zara I agree with, I think it looks like Asokas capital is on flatland so he might not be around for long.

 

[sampsa]

But how about commerce? It seems to me that the PH spot will take forever to research anything.

Palace commerce (8) alone is enough to help you get most of the early techs (especially once you learn that you don't need all of them). Later, you need something better, like a bunch of cottages or a high -tile like gold or GLH on a suitable map. Here you can claim that gold-tile later, it doesn't matter if capital doesn't have it.

I often build non-river grass cottages, too.

 

[Peacefanatic]

I don't like 1E of PH, but I don't usually like gold much either.

From my limited experience gold can make a big difference in research, is almost like you have a second palace helping your research.

On the PH Is an awesome city site, since you gain a extra hammer and therefor get your worker out quicker.

Is it worth to sacrifice the gold for the earlier worker? Is there anyway to calculate that? I still think that getting the gold is better, but I'm pretty much a noob, so I'm inclined in going with what you say.

If you wander your settler up for two turns and then settle on the PH on T2, you produce your worker in 12 turns, and he sees the light of the day T14.
Hence you have miraculasly gained a turn by moving!

But you can't settle on the PH on T2. The fastest you can settle there is T3, or am I missing something here?

The move upward is good because it secures way more land for you, land that would have been contested by the AI.
Almost everything in this game is optional, but land isn't and I gladly sacrifice alot to make sure I get more than my fair share.

Now that I met Asoka close to us, I can see that settling there was a good move to secure more land.

You also don't "lose" the gold by settling on the PH, you have it firmly in your capitals third ring, it would require some small disaster for you not to be able to get that with second or third city.

That's true, but it would take longer to start working the gold and also I don't see any good spots to settle there, do you?

I still think that going for pyramids + early CoL would have been a solid play (by settling 1 N of SiP).

Is Pyramids that good? I almost never try to build it. Actually I just like building that wonder from Communist that gives you -33% cost for whipping and buying stuff, or if I have a border city with an enemy AI that I don't intend to attack anytime soon I build some wonder for the culture.

Also the spot 1 N of SiP had 8 forests that could have been used for chops, new one only has 4.

Good point. The forests was something that was not discussed here.

Not 5 turns after you settle your city, but on T5.

Ooohhh I see it now, I thought it was 5 turns after settling your first city. So this trick only works in the begging of the game?

You are getting some conflicting advices here, there is very seldom just one way to play a map, and alot boils down to experience and personal preference.
I absolutely don't mind if you discard anything I say, my way of providing help in these threads is to explain as clear as I can how I would have played the map, and if that doesn't translate well to you, I don't take any offense in that.

krikav I really appreciate your help and I'm definetely taking what you say in consideration, I feel like I am already improving my game. Also I like conflicting advice because that way I can see more points of view and I believe I can learn more that way.
But I am a little lost now about how to proceed with this shadow game. Should I play like 5 more turns and post it here? Or should I wait for more feedback and play turn by turn?

I would put spy points on zara.

I forgot to mention but I did that. He is usually a good techer in my games.

would not go archery due to AGG, and I see loads of good outposts for brave cover promoted warriors, but I really like fighting it out with warriors too...

Those are exactly my thoughts. Usually 2 warriors on good defending spots are enough for defense.

Here you can claim that gold-tile later, it doesn't matter if capital doesn't have it.

You don't think it makes a difference?

I often build non-river grass cottages, too

I usually do that as well. The difference is just one-commerce, right? Is that much of a big deal? For financial leaders its 2 commerce, so it seems to me that makes a difference.


I just realized how long my post is and I apologize for that. I just tried to reply everybody and ask all my doubts. And thanks again for everybody trying to help me here.

 

[sampsa]

On capital gold: yes, it's better if capital has gold than 2nd city has gold, since you can work it earlier. However, 6T earlier worker is also a very big thing. -wise it leads to 6T earlier everything. And you can certainly live without capital gold.

I usually do that as well. The difference is just one-commerce, right? Is that much of a big deal? For financial leaders its 2 commerce, so it seems to me that makes a difference.

Well, +2 is just 1 more than +1, but it is also 100% more. 21-tiles are underwhelming at first, but will grow to become decent tiles. That can be better than the alternatives. One alternative is to just work 22-lakes when starving for commerce, at least then you won't get too attached to weak non-river cottages.

 

[krikav]

@Peacefanatic But you can't settle on the PH on T2. The fastest you can settle there is T3, or am I missing something here?

I think you do, might be my eyes that decieves me. In a rush now and cant' verify. But I thought it was just easy to go there, moving your settler two tiles two times. I outlined a path that would also do some scouting on it's way. T0: NW, N T1: NE, NE.


Sorry, very limited in time right now, would like to write alot on this subject but short story on my take on the gold earlier vs later sorry for rushing it!:

Everything in this game is you turning something into something else. Food into hammers, hammers into commerce etc...
One of the hardest things to transform is to transform from commerce to hammers/food which you do with certain techs like math or biology. Or with key military techs that enable conquest ofc...

But due to the flexibility and uniqueness of food/production, I always go for that first and prioritize it much much higher.
Not a natural thing to do for me, I really used to like commerce.
Do dig up a team effort "Cookbook immortal saladin" if you have time.

It was an eyeopener in that I did my usual thing, and I did get a commerce edge, (reletive to how the other players played the opening), but when I compared how I was standing I also was at least a city behind and in most cases a worker too!



There are certainly ways to calculate, but all are just models and are in their ways flawed... The rules of thumb I usually follow is:

1 Workerturn = 5 food/hammers
1 Settlerturn = 4-6 food/hammers depending on location.
Commerce can be worth equal a food/hammer, or worth greater or less, depends entierly on situation.

 

[lymond]

Pretty much most early cities that have lots of green tiles will be cottage cities in my games, regardless of being on river or not. Do you think this is a wrong move? I like to have cities that will work cottages from the very beggining of the game so the will mature quicker.

I'm answering this, but I kinda skimmed through a lot of the posts so did not catch everything. Sorry if I repeat anything.

First, overall, I take from some of your posts in general that you have a bit of a fixation of commerce early. That IS wrong. Most important thing is food, and you have that in spades whether you settled on the PH or 1E of that. (looks like you settled 1E of PH if I see things right..either way is fine..and arguments for either are solid).

My point on grassland cottages is that they are far from a priority and something, if you do choose to do, workers will not think about for a long time. The exception might be a good bureau cap with some non-river grass tiles as well..I will eventually cottage those, especially with some helper cities to grow them. Or possibly a FIN civ in a cottage worthy city. I'm not saying that non-river cottages are necessarily bad - and maybe @sampsa comment above needs some context as well - but they are not a priority and if you are prioritizing those earlier game your workers are most certainly not doing what they are supposed to be doing. In other words, if you are cottage spamming early this is likely one of the bigger flaws in your game right now. Cottages are important, but they will come in due time.

As for Ulundi - again no matter where you settle here - my point here is that it is not an ideal bureau cap. Cottaging this city is really something I would not even think about. It's a great early city though for the things you need early - food/production/whipping - and the gold tile can be exploited for research. And if you do get Mids, then well farms would be better where you can build them. But for quite some time in this game - with happy cap probably 6 in Ulundi - you are going to work best tiles and either whip or run scientists. (workshops can come later in the game)

Palace move is not common but is something to think about indeed in a case where your starting cap is not ideal for cottages. Right now, that is all an unknown. Maybe there is a good flood plain city in the fog or otherwise river infested location. Or maybe you capture an AI cap much better suited for the purpose. Or maybe you build Mids and not really worry about it, and kill everyone anyway.

(aaaand...with all that said, I can't believe GoT is done )

oh..and lastly..whad up with the avatar, krikav...is that like mushroomhead Gandalf or something...

oh..one more thing..great questions Peacefanatic..keep it up...yep, Mids is stronk!

and i can't stop...the PH or the spot you settled could have been settled on T2

 

[krikav]

@lymond Could not stand the compass anymore. Just some random pic i found. Not how you envision me?

 

[sampsa]

and maybe @sampsa comment above needs some context as well

Yep, those grassland cottages come only after initial expansion to say 4 cities. Until then, Palace, worked 1 tiles, city center tiles and trade routes bring you enough !

 

[sampsa]

I guess this is unanswered, not very important though

What does wet corn means? That corn does not get +1 commerce.

Wet corn (6) means corn with fresh water access. River is one way (river tiles gain +1) another is an adjacent fresh water lake like we have here.

 

[krikav]

@lymond I did a bit more serious attempt at a forum avatar now.

 

[Peacefanatic]

Well, +2 is just 1 more than +1, but it is also 100% more

100% more then 1 doesn't look like a lot to me

I think you do, might be my eyes that decieves me. In a rush now and cant' verify. But I thought it was just easy to go there, moving your settler two tiles two times. I outlined a path that would also do some scouting on it's way. T0: NW, N T1: NE, NE.

I was assuming the first turn was T1 and not T0, that's why I thought you coudn't settle there on T2.

One of the hardest things to transform is to transform from commerce to hammers/food which you do with certain techs like math or biology. Or with key military techs that enable conquest ofc...

How can you transform commerce into hammers/food with Math and/or Biology?

Do dig up a team effort "Cookbook immortal saladin" if you have time.

Thanks for the tip, I'll do that.

First, overall, I take from some of your posts in general that you have a bit of a fixation of commerce early. That IS wrong. Most important thing is food, and you have that in spades whether you settled on the PH or 1E of that. (looks like you settled 1E of PH if I see things right..either way is fine..and arguments for either are solid).

I admit I love commerce. But there are two reasons I do that, first is that Happy Cap is very low early on, and since we can only whip once in 10 turns, if I only work food tiles I'll reach that happy cap very soon. And after you whip library/granary/barracks/workers there is not much you need to whip early on, especially after you don't have places to settle anymore. Second thing for me is that if I don't work commerce it seems that I'll take forever to research techs to trade for Alphabet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, because everybody talks about the importance of food early on, I hope I can realize it after this shadow game.

My point on grassland cottages is that they are far from a priority and something, if you do choose to do, workers will not think about for a long time.

lymond I'm sorry but I did not understood this. What does "workers will not think about for a long" means?

our workers are most certainly not doing what they are supposed to be doing. In other words, if you are cottage spamming early this is likely one of the bigger flaws in your game right now. Cottages are important, but they will come in due time.

What workers are supposed to be doing in the early game? When do you usually start working cottages?

Palace move is not common but is something to think about indeed in a case where your starting cap is not ideal for cottages.

You only move the Palace if you want to run bureaucracy in a better capital? How about city distance cost? Is that something to consider when moving the palace?

oh..one more thing..great questions Peacefanatic..keep it up...yep, Mids is stronk!

Thanks for your help lymond!!!
If you build Mids you never work cottages? Only specialists?

and i can't stop...the PH or the spot you settled could have been settled on T2

You are right!! I was thinking that the first turn was T1 and not T0

 

[Peacefanatic]

I played a few more turns, until we got our first worker. Please correct me if that's not how I was supposed to be playing a shadow game.
Below are the updates:
We already met 5 AIs: Asoka, Ragnar, Qin Shi Huang, Zara Yaqob and Hammurabi, our EP are still on Zara.
AH was discovered and we are 2 turns away of discovering Mining. What should we research next?

There are Horses north of our capital:

Spoiler :

East of our capital:

Spoiler :

Our worker priorites now are Pigs-Gold-Corn or Pigs-Corn-Gold? I would probably go with the first, but I am not sure that is the right move.
How long before we build another settler? FYI the Chinese scout was met SE of our capital, so I'm not sure if there is someone to the East.
Additionally what should we do with our Scout?

(aaaand...with all that said, I can't believe GoT is done )

I have never watched it, but everybody says its very good. Did you like the ending?
Now one totally random question, you live in the USA right? Does anybody there talk about President Lula being in prison? Do people there think its fair?

Again thanks everybody for all your answers!!!

 

[sampsa]

100% more then 1 doesn't look like a lot to me

Math doesn't lie though.

How can you transform commerce into hammers/food with Math and/or Biology?

By researching them. Math gives +10 per chop and Biology gives +1 per farm, which can be turned into via whip.

I admit I love commerce. But there are two reasons I do that, first is that Happy Cap is very low early on, and since we can only whip once in 10 turns, if I only work food tiles I'll reach that happy cap very soon. And after you whip library/granary/barracks/workers there is not much you need to whip early on, especially after you don't have places to settle anymore. Second thing for me is that if I don't work commerce it seems that I'll take forever to research techs to trade for Alphabet. I don't know what I'm doing wrong, because everybody talks about the importance of food early on, I hope I can realize it after this shadow game.

You can whip more often than once in 10 turns though, just have to live with the -penalty. I guess you don't share food enough? Many cities can use the same food-resource to grow. Raising -cap is not useful only for growing bigger, it also allows you to whip more!

lymond I'm sorry but I did not understood this. What does "workers will not think about for a long" means?

He meant that workers have more important things to do early on. I think I did list the typical worker actions in your earlier thread. 1.improve food 2.chop 3.cottage 4.connect. No mention of mines, since they are unimportant (half-joking, mines can be ok). Because expanding fast is so useful, you should often be chopping a lot early on. Maybe you don't chop enough?

What workers are supposed to be doing in the early game? When do you usually start working cottages?

Start working cottages when your workers have improved food to all cities and chopped what you want to chop. Depends a lot on the circumstances.

You only move the Palace if you want to run bureaucracy in a better capital? How about city distance cost? Is that something to consider when moving the palace?

No, not really. 160 to save some pennies is not usually the best thing you can do.

If you build Mids you never work cottages? Only specialists?

I nearly always build some cottages, no matter Mids or not (and I really like the Mids!). Specialists are -2, so they are a bit like gold mines - not great long term, because growing is good. Great persons are very powerful, though.

 

[lymond]

I think sampsa answered all the questions you had for me..better than I could. Yep, Mids does not preclude having some cottage cities or a nice bureau cottage cap, but in many cases you will emphasize food over cottage/mines to run more specialists.

You had mentioned something to the effect of taking forever to get to Alpha or whatnot. Otherwise, the more expensive techs after Writing. Well, first of all you are going to start building libraries, at least in the cap and likely any city with good food. This allows you to run scientists and get your first GS - likely for an academy in your cap. Your research rate will improve - cottages or no. But you will likely start getting some cottages going not long after Writing or thereabouts. (You probably notice that many of us don't speak in certainties about many things simply as many things are situational in this game...it takes more practice with the game and the mechanics you learn to get a feel for what works best in a given scenario)

Anyway, I did want to ask if you were familiar with binary research. Are you just lettting the beaker slider fall where it may or do you run 0% or 100% research, accumulating gold for the next tech?

Oh..and don't forget that as you settle cities you get trade routes once connected. Trade routes are commerce. And as soon as you get foreign trade routes with nearby AIs you get even more commerce.

Overall, the idea or gist of what we are teaching you is to be more aggressive about production (food) early and make better decisions with your workers. Obviously there are some limits as to just how fast you can expand early game, but the sooner you get up more cities the more you can do and the better your research will be...and those cities and good decisions will snowball for you later.

Lula has been in the news I recall, but I'm not totally familiar with his story. I hope you get to see GoT at some point.

 

[krikav]

Pigs-Corn-Gold is the way to go, because food is more important than commerce.
You say that w/o alot of commerce it takes forever to reach things like alfabet. What are you comparing with here? Do you look at turn benchmarks or something?
Reaching key techs is worth zilch if you do not have a empire that can benefit from those techs.
Perhaps you could look at some different criterion such as "when do I reach alfabet and have a XX city empire?"


I saw this and think this indicate that you whip abit indiscriminately.
"And after you whip library/granary/barracks/workers there is not much you need to whip early on"
I think there are nuances to learn here!
Here you have alot of green land, and you have two incredibly strong 6food yield tiles, landing yourself at a total of +10 food (well, 8 soon since capital will be placed under the dreaded gold-curse, but 8 is still very strong).
With this much food, you will have an abundance of food and you might be squeezed abit on production.
I would almost only do 3pop whips of settlers and I would pay attention so I get a good deal of overflow.
Oveflow that I can put into buildings like granary and library.

With these considerations, where do you think that chops are best suited to land? i.e, what build in your city will you likely be chopping into?

 

[Fippy]

So with this cap Pigs first as mentioned (1 worker turn less than corn),
gold next would be an option if logistics would be better but 3t moving is bad
I def. disagree with "second food should always be improved before gold" thou, here that makes sense cos gold is around the lake,
but normally i want gold 2nd.

An early research boost helps much with barb countering, then again i play deity and it's more important there.
Your cap will grow fast either way once Pigs are done, and Corn could be delayed.

With expansive you will usually want Pottery after BW, cheap granaries almost arrive automatic with some whip overflow or a chop.
If you improve corn before gold (logistic reasons above), whipping the first settler seems reasonable cos you will basically just grow while your worker catches up.

 

[Peacefanatic]

You can whip more often than once in 10 turns though, just have to live with the -penalty. I guess you don't share food enough? Many cities can use the same food-resource to grow. Raising -cap is not useful only for growing bigger, it also allows you to whip more!

If early in the game I whip more then once in 10 turns my happy cap will be something around 4 for 10+ turns, it doesn't look like a good deal to me. Or is there any other way to do that? I have learned in the forums about food sharing before and I believe I do share it, but let's find out if I really do it right as this shadow game continues.

Because expanding fast is so useful, you should often be chopping a lot early on. Maybe you don't chop enough?

I think I don't chop enough early on. You chop all your trees in the beggining?

Great persons are very powerful, though.

If you are playing a Non-Philosophic leader do you keep producing GP all game long?

Anyway, I did want to ask if you were familiar with binary research. Are you just lettting the beaker slider fall where it may or do you run 0% or 100% research, accumulating gold for the next tech?

I always leave the research slider either on 0% or 100%. Is this the right way to do it?

I hope you get to see GoT at some point.

I probably will but I have heard lots of people saying that they did not like the end.

You say that w/o alot of commerce it takes forever to reach things like alfabet. What are you comparing with here? Do you look at turn benchmarks or something?
Reaching key techs is worth zilch if you do not have a empire that can benefit from those techs.
Perhaps you could look at some different criterion such as "when do I reach alfabet and have a XX city empire?"

I'm talking from my own experience of course and I'm definetely a worst player then you guys. But from the games I played if I don't work commerce early on, the enemy AIs will have Alphabet, Math, Construction, Metal Casting and I'll only have researched until writing. And then it's hard to research something to trade for Alpha. Even if I research Aesthetics I have to research a little bit of Alpha to be able to trade for it. But if you guys can do it on Deity I have to figure out what I am doing wrong to correct it. And also if I settle a lot of cities the research slider will go futher down. Just a curious question, by 1000BC and by 0BC how many cities do you usually have? Playing Pangaea Standard maps.

With these considerations, where do you think that chops are best suited to land? i.e, what build in your city will you likely be chopping into?

I usually whip Granaries, Libraries, Barracks, Units and Settlers. But I usually only build 3 settlers by 1000BC. When you have only discovered BW, TW,Pottery, Writing, there is not much that you can whip. And I'm sure I'm whipping the wrong way because I never care about overflow, I just wait until I have enough pop to chop and do it.


Also how should I proceed about this shadow game? Should I continue playing and posting it here? Or should I wait for more criticism about what I have played so far?