Importance of white representation in fiction

One could probably apply CGI and/or makeup to pass someone off as another race or gender as well, but that is generally not done.

This reminds me of the old Black and White Minstrels show on UK TV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show

I recollect that my late father enjoyed watching it.

Indeed it was quite elegant and pleasant listening and
watching, if one likes that sort of thing.

It succeeded in annoying both:

(a) not very bright whites who complained
that black men were dancing with white women

and

(b) black dancers who complained they were
being deprived of an opportunity to work.

It was seen then much as cultural appreciation,
but these days it'd be called cultural appropriation.
 
"Wrong" race and/or gender are immediately noticeable, unlike "wrong class", which can be successfully hidden - see Eliza Dolittle.

EDIT: One could probably apply CGI and/or makeup to pass someone off as another race or gender as well, but that is generally not done.
Cloud Atlas was just one example that immediately sprung to mind, where the ensemble cast were playing all sorts of different races, genders and classes throughout the film. Similar is done in stage acting all the time as the numbers of cast members are sometimes much more limited than in a feature film.
 
Cloud Atlas was just one example that immediately sprung to mind, where the ensemble cast were playing all sorts of different races, genders and classes throughout the film. Similar is done in stage acting all the time as the numbers of cast members are sometimes much more limited than in a feature film.
There were male characters playing females or vice versa? Or blacks playing whites or vice versa? I'd have no issue with that as a viewer, provided it is convincingly pulled off - would be an amazing feat actually. Just seems as an extra challenge that could be avoided in the first place by casting an actor who matches the role...
 
There were male characters playing females or vice versa? Or blacks playing whites or vice versa? I'd have no issue with that as a viewer, provided it is convincingly pulled off - would be an amazing feat actually.
Yes lots of things like that and more, and yes they pulled it off quite well AFAIC.
Just seems as an extra challenge that could be avoided in the first place by casting an actor who matches the role...
I don't necessarily agree that "casting an actor who 'matches' the role", is any less of a challenge, than using makeup, wigs, accents, CGI or whatever to transform the actors you've already got into different roles... assuming I am correct in my assumption about what you mean when you say "matching". I don't think we have any basis we have say its less "challenging" to find a person who actually looks a hobbit, or dwarf or orc, than use movie magic to make them look like one, or even why it being "more challenging" would even matter. I'm sure that putting a giant CGI dragon or elephant in a movie presents its own challenges and they still do it anyway.
 
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There were male characters playing females or vice versa? Or blacks playing whites or vice versa? I'd have no issue with that as a viewer, provided it is convincingly pulled off - would be an amazing feat actually. Just seems as an extra challenge that could be avoided in the first place by casting an actor who matches the role...

It had black playing white, and Korean if I recall, and white playing Korean, and gender swaps. As Sommerswerd said, it was about the ensemble cast (basically around 6 actors) playing these different characters throughout time, which played to one of the main themes of the novel.
 
It means (for example) that if someone does a remake of The Cosby Show (I imagine they would use a different title, though, given Cosby's RL crimes), they would cast black people, not white or Asian or native American.
As you identify, that show is clearly problematic to remake, but if another show originally featuring a mostly black cast like say Fresh Prince of Bel Air was reimagined with a mostly Asian or white cast, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I also acknowledge that some people would not like that, because they would feel strongly that the story should adhere to the original races/ethnicities of the original show. My point is that those people's viewpoint is not "correct" vis-a-vis mine. Its simply their preference and nothing more. It has no more authoritative or logical value than my willingness to see the show changed/reimagined/adapted etc.
 
I know the history, I know Shakespeare's target audience. But that's not actually the question I was asking: why do some people, even some in this very thread, consider it OK for actors to play charaters for whom they are laking some aspects (e.g. class), but not others (e.g. race, gender)? What makes the latter aspects different from the former?
Would it help you to know that Prince Charles and Prince Edward were amateur actors in their younger years, and before her marriage to Charles, Lady Diana had a room at Kensington refloored so she could practice tap-dancing?

How much do you think I'd actually pay to see any of that?

Not so much as a counterfeit, now-nonexistent Canadian penny.

People in the US primarily hung up on "race" - as in "skin colour" - probably has to do with their particular history,
I hope this is a general comment and not one in reference to the context of PhroX's question to me. I'm Canadian, not American.

What in-universe rules are there on the genetics of Hobbits? For all we know, dark skin color could be a recessive trait for Hobbits.
I have no idea. All I'm saying is that genetics matters in terms of offspring.

I get what you are saying and of course you are correct. I will also note that in a typical, Murican made film set in ancient Rome, a substantial percentage of the white actors are not going to be Italian, in a film set in France, there are going to be a bunch of actors, even featured ones, playing roles as French people who are not going to be French at all... and so on. Hell, even white Muricans get played by Aussies or Brits some of the time... and audiences just accept and enjoy it. Chadwick Boseman is from South Carolina, rather than any nation on the African subcontinent, where the fictional nation of Wakanda is supposed to be. His accent in the film is just acting.
Is his accent adequate, though? (I have no idea; I don't watch superhero movies).

There's an author of a very, very long Harry Potter fanfic I've been reading (350 chapters+) who always praises her beta reader as "the best" but proceeds to mangle about 99% of the French dialogue exchanged between Fleur Delacour and Bill Weasley. I've written to her to let her know that "n'est pas" does not mean the same thing as "n'est-ce pas?" and people in intimate situations don't call each other "vous" (unless you're in a group, addressing more than one person at the same time, but that's not how Fleur and Bill's situation was). There are other examples of mangled French grammar, as well.

She responds to dozens of other reviews, but ignores this and continues to use her mangled, broken grammar. She has included other non-English conversations in Croatian and Russian... I am not even slightly fluent in those languages, so I don't know how badly they've been mangled. But if she can't get simple conversational French right - the sort that kids learn in elementary school, I shudder to think how badly those other languages are represented.

Google Translate is NOT your friend if you don't double-check with a reverse translation to make sure you got it right.

Cloud Atlas was just one example that immediately sprung to mind, where the ensemble cast were playing all sorts of different races, genders and classes throughout the film. Similar is done in stage acting all the time as the numbers of cast members are sometimes much more limited than in a feature film.
Yup. Sometimes it's planned, if the play is a comedy or farce, and sometimes it's because RL kicks the production in the <anatomy>. The first production of Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat I ever saw was the year before I started working for that theatre company. The same actor played Jacob and Potiphar, because the actor who was supposed to play one of them died during the months when they were rehearsing. So they made a quick decision that the other actor would perform both roles - doable since those characters' major scenes were far apart and the characters never appear onstage at the same time until the very end. It made the curtain call a bit iffy since that was done in groups of characters, but the audience understood that the same person couldn't stand in two places at the same time (with both the brothers and the Egyptians).

There were male characters playing females or vice versa? Or blacks playing whites or vice versa? I'd have no issue with that as a viewer, provided it is convincingly pulled off - would be an amazing feat actually. Just seems as an extra challenge that could be avoided in the first place by casting an actor who matches the role...
Here's a question: Given that Shakespeare's Twelfth Night has a set of fraternal twins as the lead characters - a man named Sebastian and a woman named Viola - and women weren't allowed to perform on stage during Tudor times, any performances of this play would have had a man playing the role of Viola. This was considered the right thing to do in Tudor times, but is it the right thing to do now, if you want a 100% authentic Shakespearian production?

And since Viola has to pretend to be a man for much of the play, you have a man pretending to be a woman, pretending to be a man while secretly in love with the lord she's taken service with. Both she and her brother think the other is dead in the shipwreck that had them end up in Illyria.

Modern productions skip one level of complication and simply cast a woman as Viola and try to make sure that the actors cast as the twins bear some physical resemblance to each other. Casting actual twins could be done, but how many sets of twin Shakespearean actors are there? It actually does matter that the actors resemble each other, since the other characters are supposed to think that both Sebastian and Viola (dressed as a man) are the same person.
 
Genetics.
Hobbits are not real. They don't have any RL genetics, so I don't see any particular need to apply RL genetics rules to them, and even if I did, which I don't, because that's not my preference... as has already been pointed out, there is actual in-story mention of brown skinned hobbits.
If you guess that my reaction would be that as an atheist, I don't care how "god" is depicted since I don't think such an entity exists, that would be correct.
Yes that was my my guess. And I will point out that this is essentially the position that I am taking on the depiction of hobbits for example. They don't exist so it does not matter to me as much how they are depicted. Also consider how easily you were able to come to that conclusion when it was dealing with an entity that you don't particularly care for/about. Would you insist that depictions of Jesus, because he is god's son, must look like depictions of god due to genetics? Or would your position again be that you don't care because he isn't real?

Also please consider, that with god, many people actually do believe god exists whereas you are 100% aware that hobbits do not, but you were able to quickly, and casually dismiss any need for adherence to any traditional, original etc notions about the depictions of god, while wanting hobbits, who everyone agrees aren't real, to be depicted in a certain way. One important difference though, is that you actually like LotR, so you care how hobbits are depicted, but not god, because that's not something you care about. My guess is that is more of what is at play in many discussions like this. It's not that people necessarily have a rigid principle about adherence to "source" material or "original" or "traditional" or "logical" or "scientifically/genetically accurate" depictions. People just have preferences that they are justifying.

If one person likes chocolate and another likes vanilla, its easy to see that all that reflects is arbitrary preference and neither preference is correct or logical, or more worthy than the other. But what I observe with matters of preference is that people will often seek to create ideological frameworks whereby they can imagine that what is really just their individual preference is somehow better, ie., correct, or more logical, or meritorious than another preference.

When people like a thing, they sometimes want/imagine/are comfortable with it being it a certain way, so they sometimes just prefer it to be the way they are comfortable with... the way that suits their preference. I believe a while back @Yeekim posted an article that went into this concept in the context of music IIRC. If someone imagines hobbits to be "white", and likes their hobbits depicted as white, then that is what they like. That is their preference. Why they have any given preference is a separate issue. The point is that is their preference. Appeals to "source" material or "original" or "traditional" or "logical" or "scientifically/genetically accurate" are sometimes just ways of justifying their preference.

She asks him, "You've seen God?" His answer was that God was "sometimes a lady, sometimes a bunch of people". It depends on the perceptions of the believer him/herself.
And so it can be with the "race" of hobbits.
 
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Yes, I'm aware. Thankfully there are other productions I can watch that are more faithful to the source material.

Hamlet is not faithful to its source material. It doesn't even spell Amleth right!

(I'm only half-kidding here; I know Amleth was more of a foundation of inspiration above anything else, but it's a showcase of how adaptation can improve on material. I don't want faithful material - I want good material.)
 
Unlikely, if not impossible, 50 years ago. From the NYT.

This Brave New World
Three weeks before the world shut down, a date on a Central Park bench lasts 16 hours. She, an Afro-Caribbean Ph.D. candidate writing a dissertation on interracial love in colonial Africa. I, a white, high school English teacher writing a novel about interracial love in the American south. Suddenly, people are dying and we are driving to Atlanta. Time spent with my family and in my hometown with its Confederate monument. Our love defies power and typical timelines. A return to Brooklyn’s masked marches. Our wedding: May 2021. Our brave new world. We will raise children in it.
 
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Hamlet is not faithful to its source material. It doesn't even spell Amleth right!

(I'm only half-kidding here; I know Amleth was more of a foundation of inspiration above anything else, but it's a showcase of how adaptation can improve on material. I don't want faithful material - I want good material.)

wasn't Hamlet based on Danish or Norse material?
 
I have to admit, while I was enjoying the admittedly overly-evil depiction of communist-party secrecy/bureaucracy from my early childhood memories -- while I still like the show, HBO's Chernobyl really sort of pisses me off once somebody pointed out that the normal/government people got Russian accents and the long-suffering scientists got British ones.

Edit: It's been a while since I watched it. I think Michael Jordan nails "nah" better in that film than I've ever seen it. It's just right.
I never thought about it until you mentioned that (the accents thing in Chernobyl) and you're right! Yeah, that's pretty messed up, now that I'm thinking about it. But it plays perfectly into the subtle (and unsubtle) kind of biases/prejudices that we've been consuming in media our whole lives (along with, as you point out, the cartoonishly evil communist Russia). Good catch. And I agree with you that it was still a great show, albeit, as Mr. party-pooper @Lexicus demonstrated to me, not anywhere near as historically accurate as I'd presumed, to put it mildly.

I like when he takes the mask and is asked if its vibranium and glibly replies "Nah, I'm just feelin' it."
 
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I don't think we have any basis we have say its less "challenging" to find a person who actually looks a hobbit, or dwarf or orc, than use movie magic to make them look like one, or even why it being "more challenging" would even matter.
Well, I don't actually know anyone who looks quite like an orc :lol:, so there you kind of have to use movie magic.
I meant it is presumably easier to cast a black dude to play a black dude, rather than cast a white girl and then use makeup/CGI. As @Valka D'Ur mentioned, having one character play several roles which need to look alike could be one reason, I guess.

Anyway, digital enhancement only goes so far. In the Irishman, they had 75+ old De Niro play Frank Sheeran starting from when the latter would have been ~35. Didn't turn out very well. Could have passed for 55... which is already quite amazing, tbh.
 
When people like a thing, they sometimes want/imagine/are comfortable with it being it a certain way, so they sometimes just prefer it to be the way they are comfortable with... the way that suits their preference. I believe a while back @Yeekim posted an article that went into this concept in the context of music IIRC. If someone imagines hobbits to be "white", and likes their hobbits depicted as white, then that is what they like. That is their preference. Why they have any given preference is a separate issue. The point is that is their preference. Appeals to "source" material or "original" or "traditional" or "logical" or "scientifically/genetically accurate" are sometimes just ways of justifying their preference.
I would say that generally, barring some unusual edge cases, the goal of actors (and producers) is to suspend our disbelief. Logic dictates that the more closely they match the source material, the easier it is... unless the source material itself is deeply anachronistic or makes poor sense otherwise. Clearly, some find it easier to maintain immersion than others... but I would not call it "preference", rather "ability" or "tolerance". It is probably more of a scale or Bell curve than random distribution.
 
As you identify, that show is clearly problematic to remake, but if another show originally featuring a mostly black cast like say Fresh Prince of Bel Air was reimagined with a mostly Asian or white cast, I'd be perfectly fine with that. I also acknowledge that some people would not like that, because they would feel strongly that the story should adhere to the original races/ethnicities of the original show. My point is that those people's viewpoint is not "correct" vis-a-vis mine. Its simply their preference and nothing more. It has no more authoritative or logical value than my willingness to see the show changed/reimagined/adapted etc.
I appreciate your internal consistency, but I just, well, disagree. I don't think a remake of Fresh Prince or Black Panther or Shang-Chi with an all-white cast or an all Hispanic cast would have the same relevance, or even be able to tell the same story (Killmonger's character, motivation, & dying speech, for example). I also think there would be outrage over such a thing. However, as I said, I appreciate your consistency on the matter. But, one thing I do dispute...
Hobbits are not real. They don't have any RL genetics, so I don't see any particular need to apply RL genetics rules to them ... They don't exist so it does not matter to me as much how they are depicted.
I definitely differ with you on this aspect. And the reason for that is: when presented with a fictional story, we're given the ways it breaks from our world up front. Superman can fly because of our yellow sun; in Harry potter, magic exists; in Black Panther, their access to vibranium vastly accelerated their technological development; Hunger Games presents us with a dystopian world & notes the changes in society; in Star Wars, The Force is a thing; etc. The audience is given the differences, & either accepts it or not.

But, after we're presented with those differences from our world & our physics & our biology, again assuming we the audience accept these up-front differences, the rest of the rules are generally assumed to adhere to the rules we know. Gravity behaves like our world. Getting cut in half is fatal*. Genetics, physiology, biology behaves like our world, unless called out as otherwise up front. That's an inherent part of suspension of disbelief: the story-teller lets us know early on how things are different but *everything else* needs to behave like our world, or else suspension of disbelief goes out the window real quick.

For example, if in your [as in the creator of the fictional world] LotR adaptation, halfway to Mount Doom, Frodo suddenly flies through the air & shoots lasers out of his eyes, people will check out. If in the second Hunger Games adaptation movie, Katniss suddenly shrugs off bullets to the chest, people will check out. *If Darth Maul shows up totally alive after his fate in The Phantom Menace, people I will check out. Different people have different levels of "rolls eyes, I'm out", but it's A Thing That Happens.

My opinion is that saying "it's fictional, so anything goes" is a recipe for disaster. You [again, the creator of the fictional world] need to establish early on *specifically how* your fictional world is different from ours (mutants, magic, laser guns, teenage mutant ninja turtles, etc.), & it's up to us the audience to accept that or not, but then after that you need to adhere to rules of our world for anything you didn't explicitly call out as different from the start.
 
Is his accent adequate, though? (I have no idea; I don't watch superhero movies).
I'm not sure. It got the job done. It sounded like a pretty good representation of one of the various African accents we've been treated to over the years in Murican film. It sounded fine to me, and certainly better than Forrest Whittaker's accent in the movie but I'm not super-versed in different accents across the various nations and regions of Africa. Some of the actors in the movie are actually from different African countries so I'm guessing that their accents were the most accurate. Trever Noah, for example, voiced the ship's computer and he is from South Africa so I'm sure his accent was on point.

I do seem to remember reading somewhere that the director and the filmmaking team put a lot of effort into getting the languages right and getting other stylistic things like the clothing and jewelry, weapons, decorations etc., to be an accurate representation of what a super-advanced, but highly traditional sub-Saharan African kingdom might look like. IIRC the language of Wakanda is mostly Xhosa that is sprinkled with a little of other African languages and the different tribes that are united to form the Wakandan nation are intended as representation of different facets of African cultures, intentionally, to create the lore that Wakanda is like a sort of source nation that was originator/ancestor of many others across the continent.
 
I would say that generally, barring some unusual edge cases, the goal of actors (and producers) is to suspend our disbelief. Logic dictates that the more closely they match the source material, the easier it is... unless the source material itself is deeply anachronistic or makes poor sense otherwise. Clearly, some find it easier to maintain immersion than others... but I would not call it "preference", rather "ability" or "tolerance". It is probably more of a scale or Bell curve than random distribution.

I don't get why suspension of disbelief is supposed to be related to adherence to the source material at all. A wizard doing wizard things requires the same amount of suspension of disbelief, no matter whether the character wears a blue hat (as in the source material) or a gray hat and no matter the skin color of the actor.
 
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