In the Beginning...

[timtofly]

a reference to a time when God created Heaven and Earth

What is the Heaven and Earth in verse 1 that was created? If the beginning was the beginning, then there was nothing before.

there is no mention of the universe in the Bible, but Gen 1:2 clearly shows a sequence of events preceding the creation of Heaven and Earth and God was not the first to appear in that sequence.
God was preceded by a dark, water covered primordial world and from that came Heaven and Earth.

God was in verse 1 first. He created in the beginning. If talking about constellations and naming them is not about the universe, then at what point does the universe start, and why are humans and the observations of stars not part of the universe?

If I were designing biological lifeforms, I'd make sure they didn't get sick. For that reason alone (there are many others), your God is incompetent.

Being able to give and take away is not indicative of incompetence. One would have to be very competent to be able to do that, even if it seems they are a jerk about it. The design was perfect. Being able to allow for failure may seem stupid for us, and it does not even have to be designed into the finished product. Being able to remove perfection and letting it fail, is not incompetence in design, but it is the ability to let what was created to follow it's own path be it good or bad.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Being able to give and take away is not indicative of incompetence. One would have to be very competent to be able to do that, even if it seems they are a jerk about it. The design was perfect. Being able to allow for failure may seem stupid for us, and it does not even have to be designed into the finished product. Being able to remove perfection and letting it fail, is not incompetence in design, but it is the ability to let what was created to follow it's own path be it good or bad.

I don't care about giving and taking away. I'm talking about deliberately designing things that don't work properly, and refusing to fix them when they're discovered to not work properly. It's unethical in business, and unethical in designing lifeforms. If your god worked for me and did shoddy work like this, he'd get fired thisfast.

 

[abradley]

I don't care about giving and taking away. I'm talking about deliberately designing things that don't work properly, and refusing to fix them when they're discovered to not work properly. It's unethical in business, and unethical in designing lifeforms. If your god worked for me and did shoddy work like this, he'd get fired thisfast.

Would you rather God created us to do exactly as he sez or have free will?

Am for free will, not into being a robot.

 

[Arakhor]

Unless you're going with the idea that free will itself is what is killing people, your suggested dilemma has no internal correlation.

 

[abradley]

Unless you're going with the idea that free will itself is what is killing people, your suggested dilemma has no internal correlation.

Was replying to:

Originally Posted by Valka D'Ur View Post
I don't care about giving and taking away. I'm talking about deliberately designing things that don't work properly, and refusing to fix them when they're discovered to not work properly. It's unethical in business, and unethical in designing lifeforms. If your god worked for me and did shoddy work like this, he'd get fired thisfast.

Then again maybe she wasn't posting about humans?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Would you rather God created us to do exactly as he sez or have free will?

Am for free will, not into being a robot.

You have missed the point that I'm not talking about free will, obedience, or anything of that sort.

Was replying to:
Then again maybe she wasn't posting about humans?

Then again, if you want clarification, you could ask me directly.

 

[abradley]

You have missed the point that I'm not talking about free will, obedience, or anything of that sort.


Then again, if you want clarification, you could ask me directly.

Then, what were you posting about when you posted:

Originally Posted by Valka D'Ur View Post
I don't care about giving and taking away. I'm talking about deliberately designing things that don't work properly, and refusing to fix them when they're discovered to not work properly. It's unethical in business, and unethical in designing lifeforms. If your god worked for me and did shoddy work like this, he'd get fired thisfast.

As for claification, was replying to:

Originally Posted by Arakhor View Post
Unless you're going with the idea that free will itself is what is killing people, your suggested dilemma has no internal correlation.

OK, now, how about clarification on your quoted bit?

 

[El_Machinae]

Am for free will, not into being a robot.

God allegedly doesn't have disease or ignorance. It does not appear that these things are an essential component of free will.

 

[abradley]

God allegedly doesn't have disease or ignorance. It does not appear that these things are an essential component of free will.

Not sure I understand, come again.

 

[onejayhawk]

God allegedly doesn't have disease or ignorance. It does not appear that these things are an essential component of free will.

Why not? As the saying goes, if not one thing, something else.

J

 

[abradley]

deleted

 

[timtofly]

God allegedly doesn't have disease or ignorance. It does not appear that these things are an essential component of free will.

I am not sure that God needs or maintains free will. Not sure how we arrived at the same point as the other thread. It would seem that God allowed for choice instead of earth being a perfect place with no sin or consequences. From the narrative, that is how earth was before the point of sin, which brought upon the whole of creation the ability to decay and life became destructive. Humans had to work at being perfect and free from the results of such a state. The failed state was not the result of a failed creation, but it was the result of a human who decided that knowing good and evil was better than living in a boring perfect pain and disease free life.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

@abradley: I don't see what's difficult to understand about my posts. If I'm to take religious people at their word and assume that humans were created by God, I have to say I'm really not impressed. It's very shoddy workmanship and unethical to deliberately create beings who malfunction as easily as humans do. Note that I'm talking about biology, not "free will." Although some of that doesn't work too well, either, since some people are determined to do destructive, selfish things instead of constructive, helpful things.

As for claification, was replying to:

Yes, thank you, I know to whom you were replying. I noticed that.

OK, now, how about clarification on your quoted bit?

See above.

 

[Berzerker]

What is the Heaven and Earth in verse 1 that was created?

Heaven is the firmament placed amidst the waters on the 2nd day and Earth is the dry land that appeared from under the water on the 3rd day. So did "in the beginning" refer to events before the 2nd and 3rd days? No, it refers to when Heaven and Earth were created.

If the beginning was the beginning, then there was nothing before.

But Genesis describes something before Heaven and Earth were created... A dark, water covered world. Nowhere in the Bible does it say God created that primordial world.

God was in verse 1 first. He created in the beginning.

The first verse describes events that happened on the 2nd and 3rd days. Otherwise we get the illogical proposition God created Heaven and Earth in the 1st verse and created them again later. Did God create Heaven and Earth twice? And where did the water come from? The definitions for Heaven and Earth dont refer to water.

If talking about constellations and naming them is not about the universe, then at what point does the universe start, and why are humans and the observations of stars not part of the universe?

The universe already existed, Genesis is describing Earth's sky. The bible says God made the stars to serve for signs and seasons, to provide light upon the Earth. Virtually the entire universe serves neither of those purposes. What about the trillions of stars we cant see for signs and seasons? Did God make them too? No, God didn't even make the stars we can see - God made Earth's sky.

 

[Arakhor]

The first verse describes events that happened on the 2nd and 3rd days. Otherwise we get the illogical proposition God created Heaven and Earth in the 1st verse and created them again later. Did God create Heaven and Earth twice? And where did the water come from? The definitions for Heaven and Earth dont refer to water.

Or, you know, that it's just a story and shouldn't be taken literally.

 

[timtofly]

Or he created it without form, and then formed it later.

 

[warpus]

My point is that science is all about observing and measuring and those characteristics are embedded in the fabric of reality. If Science cannot measure or observe a thing, is it a thing?

If we are unable to measure something then we can't make conclusions about it, since there is no data. That's all. Does it exist or does it not? Without any data how can you know? Since we can't measure it, we can't say anything about it, so we don't.

But one of the under pinnings of science is that reality is confined to the physical universe

I don't know of any scientific theory that makes such a claim. Can you quote one?

I am not sure that God needs or maintains free will.

Surely the Christian God has free will. Otherwise he would he make decisions?

 

[timtofly]

If God knew before hand all decisions, is there a choice in the matter. God only answers to God.

 

[El_Machinae]

Surely the Christian God has free will. Otherwise he would he make decisions?

That would require there being more than one perfect choice.

 

[warpus]

From my understanding only God knows what is perfect and what isn't, and always chooses the perfect choice. Meaning the moral/godly/whatever choice.

But he makes decisions, right? A God that doesn't make decisions and is just an automated robot doesn't make any sense to me.