In the Beginning...

Today we start and end with infinity:

What is infinity?

Both a mathematical and a philosophical concept.

Scientifically the question of a beginning is an open question. Meaning we don't even know there is a beginning of the universe. In the general sense... I guess you could always argue for a beginning of the current form of the universe and cut somewhere early enough.

And even Philosophically I'll make the argument it's also a difficult thing to imagine without the necessity to introduce some transcendental element (outside the universe). Talking about the beginning of the universe is imagining the transition between nothing and something.

That's not just philosophy, it's how cosmology sees the beginning of the universe. And by necessity it's the only scientific way to speak of (the beginning of) the universe, as we have no knowledge whatsoever of a 'before' or an 'outside' the universe. To discuss such things is purely speculative.

I dont know how to post one. Just draw a triangle with the sun, Saturn and Pluto at the corners. The largest angle formed by Saturn is ~26.7 degrees shy of 180...

You do realize that all the points in that triangle are constantly moving - at different speeds?

I use to think the Bible and myth was primitive man's ignorant attempt to explain existence. Sitchin opened a door and showed me how to look outside the box. One of those academics (EC Krupp) said he was wrong but later retracted his challenge. The only criticisms I've seen from academics are over the meanings of words in ancient texts. But even if we ignore Sitchin's work, the myths still claim the world was in darkness and water.

You do realize that human myths postdate the creation of Earth by almost the exact amount of time Earth has been around?

So what research(er) says the Earth could not have formed at the asteroid belt? Thats what it all comes down to for me, the solar system is Sitchin's proof. Our water formed at the asteroid belt, and the world formed in the presence of its water, therefore the world formed at the asteroid belt.

You seem to forget the rather obvious option that our water came from the asteroid belt. Which is infinitely more probable than Earth doing some cosmic billiard game through the solar system to end up in the perfect location: here.
 
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So what research(er) says the Earth could not have formed at the asteroid belt? Thats what it all comes down to for me, the solar system is Sitchin's proof. Our water formed at the asteroid belt, and the world formed in the presence of its water, therefore the world formed at the asteroid belt.

What specifically does "in the beginning" refer to? The Babylonian epic of creation starts with "When in the heights" before Heaven and Earth were formed.

Earth is the name God gave the dry land on the 3rd day. Where was it on the 1st day? It was under water, it wasn't "Earth" (dry land) yet. But according to you, God created the dry land "in the beginning" before the 1st day. How does that work? How does God create dry land that isn't dry land? You have God creating everything before the 6 days of creation.

The Beginning was before everything physical. God/Apsu. alone begat/created the whole. Neither Heaven nor earth were named. The Enuma Elish goes on to name what consisted of the known universe. It does not say "formed". It says before they were named. Apsu was heaven, but more, the universe, and Tiamat was earth. Apsu was more because he was the name that represented all the "water", not just heaven. Heaven was named later. The other account says that Apsu was alone, there was nothing else.

I said God created matter, or whatever it was in the universe before light. I never called it earth, dirt, or soil. What would become the earth had no form whatsoever. It was chaos. After light there was nebulae/gases, that later became stars and solar systems. The stretching out of the water/space/universe is the expanding universe which the act represented. I would liken it to a program that while the engineer was working on shaping a tiny object the same action was being performed on a grander scale, with extra ability for the whole to be patterned after but totally different than the object being worked on. According the Enuma Elish, Apsu was the water, along with the feminine water, that worked together and became two: heaven and earth. Mummu was the 3rd name, as the "womb" giving birth. It would be similar to the Hindu story In the Puranas, Brahma the creator was joined in a divine triad with Vishnu and Maheshvara (Shiva), who were the preserver and destroyer, respectively. The universe was created by Brahma, preserved by Vishnu, and destroyed for the next creation by Shiva (chaos?). Some say that Vishnu was like a womb that created Brahma.

Genesis said there were 3, God, the (Word) commands, and the Spirit. The fluttering over the waters, may be likened as a "womb" giving birth. In the NT, Jesus said there were two births. The physical and the spiritual. The names that God gave to the different physical parts are what we still use today. Light/Day, Darkness/Night, dry land/earth, heaven/sky, water/oceans.

There are three major versions, and one represents God/religion. The second represents the physical/science. The third represents thought patterns/philosophy. They all overlap, but each seem to have one part that is not really emphasized in the other two.


You seem to forget the rather obvious option that our water came from the asteroid belt. Which is infinitely more probable than Earth doing some cosmic billiard game through the solar system to end up in the perfect location: here.

It was not the earth doing it though. It was the evolution of impacts caused by an invading intruder. This was not the perfect location, this was the result of a near perfect shot in the dark. It was not billiards, it was an evolving planet that started out with water, but it was not earth, until after it gained, Theia (is that feminine for God?). Even scientist proposing possible scenarios cannot forgo mythology.
 
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That's not just philosophy, it's how cosmology sees the beginning of the universe. And by necessity it's the only scientific way to speak of (the beginning of) the universe, as we have no knowledge whatsoever of a 'before' or an 'outside' the universe.

What is 'it' in those two sentences ? Of precisely what way you are referring to.

Cosmology has no final view on what is up before some time nor whether there is an origin or not. The theories are currently incomplete to go before the planck wall. Or at least we have theories with no evidence of which one is correct. My point is that from there its pretty clear talking of what happens at the very beginning of the universe scientifically as a known thing is innacurate. If there is even a beginning. If our universe is born from a previous one it becomes way more blurry to put a beginning somewhere.
 
Wait, a wet earth was moved here after it formed in the asteroid belt?

Is it even possible to apply that much kinetic energy and not vaporize all the water?
 
Wait, a wet earth was moved here after it formed in the asteroid belt?

Is it even possible to apply that much kinetic energy and not vaporize all the water?
It was a slow burn? The planetoids were playing, tag, your it.
 
So what research(er) says the Earth could not have formed at the asteroid belt? Thats what it all comes down to for me, the solar system is Sitchin's proof. Our water formed at the asteroid belt, and the world formed in the presence of its water, therefore the world formed at the asteroid belt.
Nice Model and it's variants (the best computational models we have of the Solar System's formation) are very wildly inconsistent with that hypothesis.
 
Nice Model and it's variants (the best computational models we have of the Solar System's formation) are very wildly inconsistent with that hypothesis.

Why are we so sure that the earth was not a fifth gas giant, that combined with another planet? It does not have to be as big, but it could have been the smallest. I am not against expansion, but this model still does not explain a change of orbit for the earth. It just theorizes that the gas giants "migrated" out. The proto-earth along with this mars size planet's attraction could have caused the giant to loose momentum, thus keeping it from migrating like the other 4.

I am not sure we need Nabiru to be the first impact that caused these two planets to chase each other. However when these two did finally combine, it caused the formation of two satellites, that also chased each other and later combined to form the moon. The earth being different than the other four gas giants which actively "grabbed" satellites was "ejecting" them.
 
I know... But its basically just 2 lines, one to establish Saturn's orbit around the sun and another to extend Saturn's tilted equator up to Pluto. I used the ecliptic because those numbers were readily available. Sitchin's theory is that Pluto was a satellite of Saturn, so I put their orbits on paper and found Saturn's equatorial plane does indeed point to Pluto at/near perihelion. Both planets currently share ascending nodes and subtracting Saturn's distance from the sun (~10 au) from Pluto's extremes (~49-29 au) creates a 2:1 ratio.

Well I didn't get that result when I gave it ago. Maybe I didn't take enough care. But Pluto is in a completely different orbit to Saturn (in terms of radius, eccentricity, inclination... everything basically), so even if there is this one particular configuration where Saturn's rings "point" to Pluto, this does not in any way indicate that Pluto came from Saturn's orbit, any more than the Earth's axial tilt indicates it came from Polaris.
 
Well I didn't get that result when I gave it ago. Maybe I didn't take enough care. But Pluto is in a completely different orbit to Saturn (in terms of radius, eccentricity, inclination... everything basically), so even if there is this one particular configuration where Saturn's rings "point" to Pluto, this does not in any way indicate that Pluto came from Saturn's orbit, any more than the Earth's axial tilt indicates it came from Polaris.

What result did you get? Somebody already did the math and came up with 24.8 degrees, but they may not have measured the angle based on Saturn's position below the ecliptic. The axial tilt of Polaris would be the evidence, not Earth's...

Why are we so sure that the earth was not a fifth gas giant, that combined with another planet? It does not have to be as big, but it could have been the smallest. I am not against expansion, but this model still does not explain a change of orbit for the earth. It just theorizes that the gas giants "migrated" out. The proto-earth along with this mars size planet's attraction could have caused the giant to loose momentum, thus keeping it from migrating like the other 4.

Gas giants didn't form this close to the sun, the solar wind pushed the gases out to the snow line and beyond.

I am not sure we need Nabiru to be the first impact that caused these two planets to chase each other. However when these two did finally combine, it caused the formation of two satellites, that also chased each other and later combined to form the moon. The earth being different than the other four gas giants which actively "grabbed" satellites was "ejecting" them.

Nibiru wasn't involved with the earlier impact forming the moon, Nibiru was responsible for the late heavy bombardment.

Why would I. It's enough to know that your naive ideas are wrong.

You said Sitchin doesn't know how orbits work. Where is your evidence?

You have 11,000 posts and you don't know how to click the button marked "Upload a File"??

I dont know how to produce the drawing on a pc and I dont use the upload file feature
 
I dont know how to produce the drawing on a pc and I dont use the upload file feature

Then draw it on paper, take a photo with your phone or webcam and upload it to the site. Whilst almost nothing in this thread is rocket science, uploading an explanatory image really isn't.

You said Sitchin doesn't know how orbits work. Where is your evidence
On the other hand, a professional aerospace engineer and NASA contractor does know what rocket science is and this is what he had to say about various aspects of Sitchin's theory. I'm sure it won't be a spoiler to say that he was not very impressed, to say the least.
 
No. It was Berzerker reframing the analogy. The analogy had the players reversed. He's not suggesting Earth affects Polaris in any real sense.

Certainly but the wording made it seem such an alignement WOULD be evidence. Its silly but you re probably right this is not the idea.
 
What is 'it' in those two sentences ? Of precisely what way you are referring to.

Cosmology has no final view on what is up before some time nor whether there is an origin or not. The theories are currently incomplete to go before the planck wall. Or at least we have theories with no evidence of which one is correct. My point is that from there its pretty clear talking of what happens at the very beginning of the universe scientifically as a known thing is innacurate. If there is even a beginning. If our universe is born from a previous one it becomes way more blurry to put a beginning somewhere.

Right. How about this? The universe signals the beginning of space-time. (FWIW this basically sums up current views on the universe and its 'beginning'.) Which is basically what I was trying to get across. And one may speculate about what was 'before' or is 'outside' the universe, but this is ultimately pointless except as an academic exercise, because we can't know.

The Beginning was before everything physical. God/Apsu. alone begat/created the whole. Neither Heaven nor earth were named.

You may note that heaven and Earth are both physical. (Not that that term would have any meaning to the authors of Genesis.)

It was not the earth doing it though. It was the evolution of impacts caused by an invading intruder. This was not the perfect location, this was the result of a near perfect shot in the dark. It was not billiards, it was an evolving planet that started out with water, but it was not earth, until after it gained, Theia (is that feminine for God?). Even scientist proposing possible scenarios cannot forgo mythology.

And this of course follows logically from the quoted

You seem to forget the rather obvious option that our water came from the asteroid belt. Which is infinitely more probable than Earth doing some cosmic billiard game through the solar system to end up in the perfect location:here

Why are we so sure that the earth was not a fifth gas giant, that combined with another planet?

Well, for one, gas giants tend to be a whole lot bigger than the size of Earth or Mars.

What result did you get? Somebody already did the math and came up with 24.8 degrees, but they may not have measured the angle based on Saturn's position below the ecliptic. The axial tilt of Polaris would be the evidence, not Earth's...

You didn't actually understand anything he said, did you...

Gas giants didn't form this close to the sun, the solar wind pushed the gases out to the snow line and beyond.

And, of course, they then travelled back against the solar wind to end up where they are now.

Nibiru wasn't involved with the earlier impact forming the moon, Nibiru was responsible for the late heavy bombardment.

So Nibiru is gibberish for a disproportionately large number of asteroids now, is it? Because that is presumed to be the LHB.

I dont know how to produce the drawing on a pc and I dont use the upload file feature

Well, luckily there are plenty of folks who do that for us. See picture below. (You may note that the rings of Saturn from no viewpoint anywhere point to Pluto, whose orbit is an ellipse. Although normally anyone might surmise that a circle does never 'point' to an ellipse, I thought a nice graphical representation might clarify it for you.)
 

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Right. How about this? The universe signals the beginning of space-time. (FWIW this basically sums up current views on the universe and its 'beginning'.) Which is basically what I was trying to get across. And one may speculate about what was 'before' or is 'outside' the universe, but this is ultimately pointless except as an

But thats exactly the problem. We dont know if there is a beginning to spacetime. We cannot shrink it to a singularity and find a t=0 through GR. That is an oudated idea that ignores the 3 other forces. That is my current point. Science is still trying to work out the history (for now). Its absolutely not pointless to talk about whats before the time we actually have a solid model for. Research is actively done on that subject. Thats the point of string theory or quantum loop gravity theories for example as it tries to answer how gravity interacts with the other forces in a small space at high energy.
And as far as I understand these, the idea of a singular point being the beginning (the original idea of the big bang developped in the 50s or 60s) disappears in these theories.
This is the idea I'm trying to get across. The reality of a beginning is in question at a scale we actually try to understand. It would be weird to name "beginning" the first point in time we accurately model while we know there is something before.

Note that it's from my understanding of the subject so if I'm sometimes inexact or imprecise I'm sorry.
 
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Then draw it on paper, take a photo with your phone or webcam and upload it to the site. Whilst almost nothing in this thread is rocket science, uploading an explanatory image really isn't.

On the other hand, a professional aerospace engineer and NASA contractor does know what rocket science is and this is what he had to say about various aspects of Sitchin's theory. I'm sure it won't be a spoiler to say that he was not very impressed, to say the least.

I dont have anything to take photos... But drawing a triangle is not rocket science either and I can do that.

From your link:

No! Current theory says the planet never formed, due to gravitational effects from Jupiter. (see Watters, and see "Structure and evolution of the asteroid belt", Chebotarev, G.A., 1974, NASA RECON database) There isn't enough mass there for a decent planet anyway.

Where's all the missing mass? There just isn't an Earth-sized planet worth of junk in the asteroid belt.

Your source made the same simple mistake... He's already impressing me ;) I read the link, I remember it from the past. You'll have to quote him, I dont know where he showed the Earth could not be the remains of a planet that formed at the asteroid belt. He knows Sitchin's theory claims the Earth is part of the junk and the relevant evidence depends on how much mass was there >4bya, not how much there is now.

The link I posted said maybe an earth's mass was present originally. Thats low, if the Earth was there then the material involved included the earth/moon, asteroids (comets?) and moons (winds). I saw something recently suggesting the asteroids appear to have come from several main sources, and our water of course.

How did Kingu become tide-locked (one side facing always towards the Earth) if it used to be a satellite of body twice as large and how did its orbit get so circular after that rough ride?

The side of the Moon facing Earth during a collision(s) was hit by debris making the near side "heavier" and causing the lava flows forming the face, or rabbit, or...whatever. But the Moon's orbit is tilted by over 5 degrees, so that speaks of a disruption to the system.

If Marduk is still in this retrograde orbit that crosses through the outer planets every 3,600 years, why hasn't it disturbed the nice, circular orbits of Jupiter, Neptune and Uranus? If the disruption caused by puny Pluto (smaller than Earth's Moon and not in a retrograde orbit) is noticeable, why not Marduk? Why haven't those asteroids been swept out of there by Marduk in the millions of times it has cruised through?

Marduk has disrupted the solar system in many ways. The plane of the planets is tilted a few degrees to the solar equator and the smaller stuff we see is even more inclined. Of the planets Earth has the most tilted orbit (over 7 degrees). It might also account for periodic extinctions because asteroids are still being swept out.

It's even worse: if Tiamat collided with Marduk and picked up the vector needed to head for the Earth's orbit, how did it get circularized? It's flatly impossible (ask anyone how knows about this sort of thing) for a body to have left the asteroid belt and ended up in a circular orbit where the earth is without some additional acceleration. Flatly impossible. So what accelerated the entire earth by a couple kilometers per second to circularize the orbit once it got down to the right slot? Sitchin offers no answer.

An impact with a faster moving object?

How did Gaga get flung out to where Pluto is? What about the many other moons of Saturn, why weren't their orbits wrecked? Gaga could be flung outward by gravitational force, but what circularized its orbit out there?

Pluto appears to be a double planet with its moon Charon, so something caused it to split in two. And something caused those rings, maybe a few moons had their orbits wrecked. The sun 'circularized' its orbit.

No current scientific cosmology can account for a large planet forming in a retrograde, very eccentric orbit.

The sun cant capture rogue planets?

If Neptune pulled on Marduk, then Marduk pulled on Neptune. Yet its present-day orbit is very circular, more so even than the Earth's. Same is true of Uranus. If Marduk is falling freely near Neptune, the gravity of Neptune effects it the same all over, no "bulge" would be pulled in it's side. Pack a ball of dirt together with your hands and throw it into the air. Does the large gravity of nearby-Earth pull a bulge out of the side of it? No. Tidal forces might create sizable effects if Marduk got very close, but obviously it didn't.

Sitchin said Marduk was a still very hot planet (possibly the remnants of a nearby supernova and/or its planetary system - maybe life survived and was brought here) and the bulges formed as it spun by planets. A ball of dirt lacks mass, plasticity and spin. Thats a strange analogy.
 
You may note that heaven and Earth are both physical. (Not that that term would have any meaning to the authors of Genesis.)

Except at the point they were not. You are arguing a point with those who do not agree with me, so where does that put you? Who are these authors you are questioning, and how do you know they cannot tell the difference between what is or is not physical? Is what we call spiritual, physical?

You claim they did not understand what they wrote, and yet most creation stories, at the beginning. make the distinction that there was a named being before everything else existed. You make it sound like they were pretty good at putting their thought in some "printed" form, but had no idea what those thoughts were or even meant.

Well, for one, gas giants tend to be a whole lot bigger than the size of Earth or Mars.
At what point in the process do they get to pick their pre-determined size?

Well, luckily there are plenty of folks who do that for us. See picture below. (You may note that the rings of Saturn from no viewpoint anywhere point to Pluto, whose orbit is an ellipse. Although normally anyone might surmise that a circle does never 'point' to an ellipse, I thought a nice graphical representation might clarify it for you.)
Your example did not even include Pluto. And what is the deal with making the asteroid belt look like it has more mass than all the planets combined? Pluto's orbit is unusual, and what is trying to be said is that the orbit falls inline with the rings of Saturn as if formed from there. Pluto was pulled away, allegedly in a way that kept it's same orbital plane as Saturn's rings, but now it orbits the sun in that plane. Now there is only one point in Saturn's orbit that aligns with this plane, but that is ok, because Pluto only left once, and one would have to plot back in time to prove if such an alignment happened in accord to the cycle of the 3600 year wandering planet. Unfortunately or Fortunately for some skeptics, we do not have a firm date on when this planet can be successfully "mapped". However if we started at the first point of impact and calculated out every 3600 year appearance we may get some indication as to what happens every 3600 years. The problem with that is we do not know what positions were, where they were, their speeds, nor interactions. We would have to map things back from this point to find the intersection(s), taking into consideration any rate of expansion going on. Assuming that the earth has been doing it's thing for 4.6 billion years there have been 1,277,777 encounters to map out. In fact it is at .77778 meaning that it is a little over .2222 from happening again. If my math is correct 800 years. So the last appearance was 784 BC. The one before that would be 4384 BC. The one before that would be 7984 BC. The one before that would be 11584 BC.

784 was supposed to be the start of the Olympic Games, but riots and unhappiness caused the games to be delayed then and again in 780. The first games were not until 776.

In 7000 BC the English Channel formed.

In 7640 BC theorized time for impact of Tollmann's hypothetical bolide with Earth and the associated global cataclysm...

What result did you get? Somebody already did the math and came up with 24.8 degrees, but they may not have measured the angle based on Saturn's position below the ecliptic. The axial tilt of Polaris would be the evidence, not Earth's...

According to the link from the Smithsonian, Pluto's plane is off 17 degrees from the plane of the rest of the planets. The 3600 year wanderer may also be in this plane with Pluto, and may have been influential in why Pluto has such a long orbit.

Gas giants didn't form this close to the sun, the solar wind pushed the gases out to the snow line and beyond.
Saying "this close" is hardly relative when the disc first formed around the sun. Everything was closer if we are going with the Nice Model. There was some expansion that happened, which is hinted in the metaphor of splitting Tiamat. Strictly speaking Tiamat is not just the earth, but the earth as forming at the "center" of the system. Tiamat being split was not the earth, but the disc as a whole. When in fact the asteroid belt splits the outer planets from the inner planets. Earth only swapped spots with Mars, probably because it gained more density than Mars, and the attraction to the sun could have pulled it in closer. The earth swapped after the combining impact, because that is when it gained mass and the result was a higher density. The first impact was the separation of the disc. That is why no planet formed there, but the earth was far enough to gain the attributes of a gas giant. However while it was forming, there was a "counter" forming denser planet with properties of the inner planets. For the first 3600 years, they may have been at opposite points from each other. Every 3600 years, they were effected by this visitor. The inner type planet would have started to be drawn in and it's speed would have been increasing in comparison with the earth, but because there were times this wandering planet was around it influenced their eventually combining impact. After the earth forming impact the earth was getting further from the zone this visitor travels through, and that may have been when it started to influence Pluto's orbit. Now when the account speaks of winds, that may be the number of times this wanderer came for a visit? The army that Tiamat was forming was the planets and moons. It was viewed as an "assembly" to stop this "invading" wanderer.
 
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