In the Beginning...
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timtofly
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The point is Adam was immortal, and became mortal. Every other 6th day immortal/god never died. Adam was the only one who died. It is/was assumed that after mortals die, they again obtain immortality. It is humanity that did not retain the immortal "spirit" of God.
Jesus was not created, but all the other Sons of God were. Jesus was the first and only "born" / begotten Son of God. One question is at what point in his life did he become fully God. Was it after Satan tried to tempt him, but failed? Was it when he was baptized? John said the Word became flesh. That part of Jesus existed as God and was what spoke the physical universe into motion, in the command, "Let there be light."
I guess some may argue, that the Word could not be conceived, but at some point it became flesh, in the body of Jesus.
Later, Paul pointed out that any human could be a Son of God, if God’s Spirit was in them. After that Theologians argued over whether or not humans could loose the Spirit, or have to work to obtain it, and keep it. Seeing how it is a free gift, I suppose a person could give it back if they don't want it. Nor does it seem God would force it on us. I am not sure how one could think that God would take back the gift, because God poured out all the wrath on Jesus, choosing to negate the ability of it being taken away, once it was offered. I think that some humans make it sound more complicated than it actually is. And it has nothing to do with morals or morality. My spell checker seems to get morals and mortals, immoral and immortal mixed up though.
Again, this is not in Genesis. In fact, the exact opposite is in Genesis: it is not said that Adam is immortal - because he isn't. In fact, he is expulsed from the Garden to prevent him from eating from the Tree of Life as well - as that would make him even more like God. (The Tree of Life obviously giving immortality. One better not ask why that tree was even in the Garden.)
No, I didn't.
No, they weren't.
No, I don't. And yes, you are arguing.
The Bible and evolution have literally nothing to do with one another. The one is religious, the other is scientific.
Actually, nobody needs to 'claim' that.
timtofly
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God said Adam would die. Adam lost his immortality at the moment he disobeyed God. That is death.
Gaining the knowledge of good and evil made him more like God, but disobeying God drove him further away from God. We are not like God, because of knowledge. We used to be like God, because that was how God created Adam. Adam lost that likeness of God, and became mortal. Eating of the Tree of Life may extend mortal life, but it does not magically make a mortal immortal. Only God can change the biological attributes of a created being. If you believe in magic, then eating gives eternal life. Satan's deceit was convincing Eve that she would become the same as God. She was already like God in form, and immortality. The change in form had nothing to do with magic, but disobeying God. The Tree did not give them the ability. God said that at the point of disobeying God, they would gain such knowledge. Adam had to be immortal, because all created beings were immortal as part of the Image of God. Being mortal is not an image of God, it is the image of death. Death is not "knowing good and evil", that is being like God. Death is the result of sin. Being mortal is the sign of death. Sin is the result of disobeying God.
The Lie: Satan said that Adam would not die, but would become like God. Adam did die, and now the only thing that makes him like God, is knowing good and evil. But unlike God, Adam would now have to experience good and evil. God took away immortality, the Garden, access to eternal life, and the benefit of God's presence. That is the truth according to the account.
Again, this is not in Genesis. As just mentioned. I'm not sure where you get this fanciful interpretation, or why you even think it's necessary to 'interpret' very clear words.
timtofly
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Genesis 2:17 clearly says that when Adam eats he will be certain of death. If he never eats, he will be certain to live. One is mortality, the other immortality.
timtofly
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He shalt die? Or shalt surely die? When Adam disobeyed, he became susceptible to death. If that happened after he ate, then before he ate he was not susceptible to death. Since death was not immediate, then it was the ability to die that was immediate.
I suppose most would just say that God lied, Adam did not die, end of story. Something did happen, and after it happened, Adam needed to eat of the tree of life. No where does it say that he needed to eat of the tree of life before the incident. It said he could freely eat, but not that he needed to eat.
It goes back to the question was either tree "magical", or were they just ordinary fruit bearing trees? What if Adam was able to eat of the tree of life, and died any way? Just because a tree has a certain name, does not mean it is a "magical" tree. My question is why do humans believe in magical trees, yet do not believe that God carries through on what was promised. Eve believed that the tree was good to look at and would grant wisdom and equality with God. Eating did none of that. IMO the name of the tree, nor the tree itself have any magical powers. Adam and Eve gained the knowledge of good and evil, because that is what God said would happen, not because they magically received powers from eating. I then pointed out that Jesus radicalized the notion that an act was no longer the beginning of sin, but that sin started with the thought, and the act was just the result of thinking about sin.
I then pointed out that God even told Cain that sin as a thought was waiting just outside, and letting it in would then lead to the act. Jesus was not radical in his thinking. It was already there in the Garden. Thinking that one can get away with disobeying God is equal to doing the act, because one will always think they know more than God does when they start thinking that they do not have to do as God asks them to do. Satan has the exact same thought, that he knows better than God. God allows Satan to have more liberty and ability than Adam had.
Those are my thoughts, but what do I know? According to some, not much. That is ok, I don't know much. I know there is a God, but I do not claim to know everything about God.
Berzerker
Deity
"but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”
“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
so what happened? I call upon God to testify:
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden
Adam was mortal and God practically quotes the Serpent's prediction. Not one word about sin, disobedience, or death.
“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’ ”
4“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
so what happened? I call upon God to testify:
And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” 23So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden
Adam was mortal and God practically quotes the Serpent's prediction. Not one word about sin, disobedience, or death.
Berzerker
Deity
yikes, triple post
Berzerker
Deity
sorry bout that, chief
Did being in the garden grant immortality and leaving it make one mortal?
timtofly
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This works if you do not include Adam in the same group of people created on day 6.
This works if you accept the trees are magic.
This works if you ignore the fact that when Adam ate, he did disobey God. When God said you must not eat, was that a command? Sin is breaking one of God's commands. I thought every one accepted that. What I do not accept is that morality is being GOD like. Morality has to do with human relations and has nothing to do with God. Normally we do not sin against each other, because for the most part, no one is above the law, nor really has the authority to tell another person how to live. We can rule ourselves, but this comes from agreement, not having one human be our Lord.
If one thinks that learning what morality is, is being godlike, then it would seem that humans got life all wrong. We are not in the image of God because we ate, we were in the image of God before we ate, and now we are not. It is still separating Adam from the beings created on day six, and giving Adam his own creation experience separate from the others.
The command did not say you will die. It said you will certainly die. The word "certainly" seems to put a "disclaimer" on death. Is it an unnecessary adverb? In the Hebrew it is redundant usage of the word meaning "to die" Literally it said after eating to die to die. We normally do not think of it as dying twice, but that is the way it was written. That could be interpreted, that in order to die, one had to die twice. Is the first death the loss of mortality and then the second death was the actual death?
That makes sense to those who think that the Garden, and Promised Land, and the New Jerusalem were/are places where there was Heaven on Earth. But that means that God created an imperfect Adam that had to live in the Garden. That is still giving Adam his own separate creation. If you look at the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle, and Temples that the Hebrews built, it was a special place where God allegedly appeared in full Glory. It would seem to make more sense that the Garden was such a place and God seemed to talk to Adam, Eve, and Cain as naturally as Eve talked to the Serpent and they all talked to each other.
I will throw another thought out there. There is the idea that Immortals could change their form. This would be noted in the fact that Satan an Immortal could take on the form of a walking talking Serpent. It would seem that he took on that form as showing his authority over Eve. I am not saying that Adam and Eve may have been more Naïve and lacked knowledge that the other's had. For some reason they were singled out and there was a lot of knowledge about who they were that was hidden from them. Or so it seems. Morality only being a part of knowing good and evil. Why would some one think that experiencing evil is a good thing? Is death and suffering good? We learn from experience, is a fact. Would we learn less if such experience was never bad? I suppose trial and error postpone humans from getting to the truth or finding out something and would give some longevity to life, as opposed to knowing everything without even experiencing it.
Not according to Genesis. But let's assume it did. Why then was there a Tree of Life in the Garden? God certainly had no need for it. Which raises the question: why were there trees in the Garden whose fruits should not be eaten, and served no purpose to God?
timtofly
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Does there have to be a reason for everything? Having laws, and punishment seems unreasonable, but I guess there are beings who feel they are necessary.
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