Incentives under communism?

[W|M]

Part of the EU

Norway has never been part of the EU, its imperialism comes from resource extraction in other countries

 

[Lexicus]

This thread has devolved into bad arguments and historical revisionism.

The fact of the matter is that even under the comical estimates produced by dumb books like the Black Book of Communism, Capitalism kills more people every ~15 years than Communism has in its entire history. Ergo, Communism is the better system.

I invite the Capitalists to cope, seethe, ect.

I don't even agree that Marxist-Leninist regimes are meaningfully communist and agree with @Hygro that their successes are more proof-of-concept for the power of the state to intervene positively in the economy than evidence about communism.

Yeah that’s what you’re saying at the end of the day Zardnaar, you would be safe under Hitler because you’d be a good little collaborator and wouldn’t rock the boat when Hitler sent your neighbours to the camps.

Disgusting.

He said it explicitly once, but I couldn't find the post, alas

 

[Lexicus]

The issue with existing communist states is civil rights, actually the absence of civil rights. Yes, the US is far from perfect, but if I type "eff Biden, double eff the Constitution!" I'm not worried about the FBI breaking down my door and dragging me to prison.

On the other hand if you type "eff [insert local sheriff's name]" you might have to worry about deputies breaking down your door and seizing your stuff as "evidence"

 

[Angst]

Norway has never been part of the EU, its imperialism comes from resource extraction in other countries

i want to point out - it's part of the eea, as such very much entrenched in the eu, while not part of it. but it's a moot point. as you point out, the behavior discussed is very much present

 

[Sarin]

He said it explicitly once, but I couldn't find the post, alas

You have explicitly stated that you'd go with Pol Pot, before editing the post to cop out.

 

[Lexicus]

You have explicitly stated that you'd go with Pol Pot, before editing the post to cop out.

That was a poor joke, but you know what, I stand by it, I'd rather be killed for wearing glasses than for being involved in a trade union and leftist politics

 

[NinjaCow64]

Norway has never been part of the EU, its imperialism comes from resource extraction in other countries

Mea cupla. WIM is correct about the resource extraction.

 

[Angst]

i mean, it's not all wrong (if you missed my post). @NinjaCow64 the eea is within the framework and political structure of the eu, and very much complicit in a lot of things there.

but yeah, it doesn't really matter. eu or not, norway engages in plenty of abuse.

 

[Zardnaar]

That was a poor joke, but you know what, I stand by it, I'd rather be killed for wearing glasses than for being involved in a trade union and leftist politics

Plenty of trade unionists survived the Nazi regine. They basically stoke there assets (Wages of Destruction iirc).

 

[NinjaCow64]

i mean, it's not all wrong (if you missed my post). @NinjaCow64 the eea is within the framework and political structure of the eu, and very much complicit in a lot of things there.

but yeah, it doesn't really matter. eu or not, norway engages in plenty of abuse.

Yeah its why I got it mixed up. Europe is a confusing mess of overlapping organisations connected to the EU.

 

[Ajidica]

That was a poor joke, but you know what, I stand by it, I'd rather be killed for wearing glasses than for being involved in a trade union and leftist politics

Given the state of Cambodia, good chance you would be shot for wearing glasses or being involved in a trade union or leftist politics. Because any of those would mark you as not one of the people and in need of re-education.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't even agree that Marxist-Leninist regimes are meaningfully communist and agree with @Hygro that their successes are more proof-of-concept for the power of the state to intervene positively in the economy than evidence about communism.



He said it explicitly once, but I couldn't find the post, alas

I said I woukd keep my mouth shut and head down in Hitlers regime. I wouldn't nark on Jews or anyone else.

I wouldn't actively be joining the gestapo, SS or anything like that (might not have a choice joining the army)

Would do the same under any totalitarian regime.

And I would pick some communist regimes over Hitlers as well just to be clear. At least with some of them I wouldn't be drafted into the army and sent to fight someone else.

 

[Farm Boy]

Imperialism is about control, and not necessarily achieved via these means. And if you think about history, the later stage of Nordic involvement in British Isles has elements of such. Danelaw, anyone?

If it's not on the methods. Which it still is, then it's a goal.

Rape, murder, and theft are all types of control. Literally, the act. But we have names for these, you don't need the generic term.

 

[Lexicus]

Given the state of Cambodia, good chance you would be shot for wearing glasses or being involved in a trade union or leftist politics. Because any of those would mark you as not one of the people and in need of re-education.

Right, the point is I'm choosing death either way which kind of renders the intended "gotcha" pathetic and stupid.

I mean, the other thing with bringing up Pol Pot in this context is that the Khmer Rouge's ideology of Khmer racial supremacy bears substantially more resemblance to fascism than to Marxian thought, and as Crezth noted it was a Communist regime that removed the Khmer Rouge from power over the objections of China and the US.

 

[Ajidica]

Right, the point is I'm choosing death either way which kind of renders the intended "gotcha" pathetic and stupid.

I mean, the other thing with bringing up Pol Pot in this context is that the Khmer Rouge's ideology of Khmer racial supremacy bears substantially more resemblance to fascism than to Marxian thought, and as Crezth noted it was a Communist regime that removed the Khmer Rouge from power over the objections of China and the US.

So we got a Communist Regime (China) supporting a [I dunno] regime (Cambodia). With the communist regime doing so because they were salty at another communist regime for telling them to please sod off.

At least African international relations will still be more complex than southeast asia. Though SEA gives the balkans a run for their money in complexity and the enemy of my enemy is my friend until I decide I need another enemy.

 

[Zardnaar]

Right, the point is I'm choosing death either way which kind of renders the intended "gotcha" pathetic and stupid.

I mean, the other thing with bringing up Pol Pot in this context is that the Khmer Rouge's ideology of Khmer racial supremacy bears substantially more resemblance to fascism than to Marxian thought, and as Crezth noted it was a Communist regime that removed the Khmer Rouge from power over the objections of China and the US.

They were actively supported by Maos China who armed them and traded with them.

If USA is quasi fascist Khmer Rouge are Communists. They were so bad they basically justified the Vietnamese invasion.

Not to many wars are justified when you invade someone else that was one of them.

 

[Lexicus]

Imperialism refers in the generic sense to a type of "international" political organization whereby a periphery is economically exploited and politically controlled by a core> or metropole. Empire is a much older form of political organization than the modern nation-state and predates capitalism by millennia.

The specifically capitalist variant of imperialism arises from surplus capital in the imperial core countries (in practice, the states that managed to industrialize on their own rather than being conquered by another state and then subsumed into the global capitalist system that way). This surplus capital is "surplus" because in capitalism as a political system the people are never allowed to consume all the stuff they produce. For various reasons which boil down to "the tendency of the rate of profit to fall", this surplus capital in the developed world seeks out new markets in the developing world leading to commercial and industrial investment in the periphery, from which follows the extension of political control to guarantee the security of these investments.

Lenin isn't the only theorist who argued this, Hobson and more interestingly an American liberal named Charles Conant argued it as well.
From his wiki article,

Conant's most important work consists of journal articles collected in The United States and the Orient, in which he argued, before John A. Hobson and Vladimir Lenin, which took a moral perspective into the theory, that imperialism was a natural and necessary outgrowth of capitalism. In reviews of the book Conant's argument was summarized as follows: (1) "In all advanced countries there has been such excessive saving that no profitable investment for capital remains" , (2) since all countries do not practice a policy of commercial freedom, "America must be prepared to use force if necessary" to open up profitable investment outlets abroad, and (3) "Only by the firm hand of the responsible governing races....can the assurance of uninterrupted progress be conveyed to the tropical and undeveloped countries"

 

[Lexicus]

Ok now do that for “incentives under communism”

Incentives is a big topic, put a pin in it tho, I'm writing a post in an out-of-the-way browser tab

 

[pob]

Young Zard is willingly to work on the farm for, what was it, double minimum wage? Or was it quadruple?
After the grand revolution, all the cushy desk job people may have to work 9 to 5 every day, but maybe Young Zard is only asked to work the field one or two days per week and can have extra leisure time. We'd just need four times as many Young Zards.
A lot of oil riggers already do something like this: working two weeks on, two weeks off.
You're still too fixated on money or objects to reward/incentivize the difficult jobs.

 

[Akka]

Just quoting this one for posterity. "Centrists" stop themselves from defending Nazis for five seconds challenge failed

It's pretty staggering that you display such level of lack of self-awareness. Or maybe you actually support oppressive dictatorships that murder their citizen by the millions.

(hint : if Zaardnar becomes a "fascist sympathizer" and "defend the nazi" for trying to point that Pol Pot murdered a greater proportion of his people than Hitler, then you are a "Stalin sympathizer" and are "defending the Gulag and the Holodomor" by trying to claim that Hitler crimes are worse than Stalin's)

Or maybe it's just the usual hypocrisy "it's okay when my teams does it", right ?