Institutional racism in policing and how to rectify it.

[Timsup2nothin]

Among others, but most importantly, an immediate end to disorder. No more property destruction. No more burnings of businesses or churches. No more looting. No more threats against police or other officials.

This would necessarily tie into an abandonment of the notion that cops and the justice system are bad guys--the enemy.

An acceptance responsibility for the crimes that blacks do commit. Stop pretending that every black man/child that gets shot or beaten is an angel and never did anything wrong.

This would tie into a commitment by blacks to do something meaningful to better their own communities.

Severing of their relationship with communists, anarchists, and other such groups. I do not subscribe to the idea that we have to respect communists and treat them like everyone else. There should be no distinction between their kind and fascists. I do not mind if there are communists among the demonstrators, but a formal alliance of your side's cause with the communists and anarchists is a deal-breaker, for me.




Because it is rare, quite temporary, and local compared to what has occurred over the past week. Cops don't burn businesses, flip over cars and set them on fire, or block major transportation arteries and shut down commerce to call attention to themselves.

Well, this topic isn't the place for that particular concession since it obviously refers to that specific corner of Missouri that shall not be named, but for the purpose of general discussion it seems a reasonable thing to want.

As to the rare and temporary chaos...I'll defer until I see your answer to the previous post which went into more detail.

 

[JohnRM]

Well, this topic isn't the place for that particular concession since it obviously refers to that specific corner of Missouri that shall not be named, but for the purpose of general discussion it seems a reasonable thing to want.

As to the rare and temporary chaos...I'll defer until I see your answer to the previous post which went into more detail.

I am not sure that this qualifies as such a violation given how frequently this has occurred. The Watts (1965), LA (1992), Oakland (2009) come immediately to mind. Black groups have been allied with communists going back decades. This kind of reaction is not a novel occurrence. I don't know how to discuss the issue without referring to these frequent acts of disorder.

 

[JohnRM]

Lots of people in the good neighborhood wear a polo and khakis. Lots of people in my neighborhood where baggies and hoodies. Both drug dealers 'look the part' of an ordinary citizen in their neighborhood. But a guy in a hoody and baggies is going to get rousted far more than a guy in a polo and khakis, because the consequences of rousting them and finding out they aren't a drug dealer after all are so much greater among the polo and khaki wearers.

On the west side a cop that rousts a potential drug dealer and finds that he missed is apologizing and hoping against a complaint or lawsuit. On my side of town he administers some intimidation and leaves with a 'you probably did something anyway'. Institutional racism? Just economics? Ultimately, is this fair?

Assuming that this is the post you were speaking of:

Discrimination will always exist. It is a part of human nature and what made us a successful species. I am always going to judge the kid with his pants around his ankles as the more likely threat than the kid with pressed khakis and polo. I am always going to be able to see how the cop thought he might be suspicious. At the end of the day, I hate wearing khakis and a polo, a suit, or some other formal wear, but that is what is expected of you in society. If you wear the kind of clothing associated with criminals and gangsters in every single piece of film, television, or other video ever created, I can't say that a part of me doesn't think you deserve to be suspected of something.

I frequently think of the Natalie Holloway case when this issue comes up. Did she deserve whatever fate that she ended up meeting? No. It was not justified, based on her actions, but the fact that she went to a foreign country, got drunk, and left a bar with two guys she had never met before that night makes me stop and think that she contributed to her own death in a very big way that makes me just a bit less sympathetic toward her than, ironically, the literally hundreds of other children, many of them black, that go missing every year and never get a word from the major news networks.

Now, is dressing in bagging pants and a hoody the same thing? Clearly not, but just like leaving a bar drunk with two strange men is NEVER going to be a good idea/never going to be safe for a lone woman, so too is it never going to improve your odds of not being suspected of doing something wrong to be wearing that kind of clothing.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I am not sure that this qualifies as such a violation given how frequently this has occurred. The Watts (1965), LA (1992), Oakland (2009) come immediately to mind. Black groups have been allied with communists going back decades. This kind of reaction is not a novel occurrence. I don't know how to discuss the issue without referring to these frequent acts of disorder.

I thought you were referring to the current act of disorder, but now we have a problem, because of position I hold on the record, so to speak.

In 1992 the LAPD suffered from huge and seemingly insurmountable problems. As I have said repeatedly about the problems in TCoMTSNBN, and the problems in my own home town, they were not black problems, they were blue problems. For one, a genuine criminal organization was operating with impunity within the LAPD...unrecorded drug raids to acquire merchandise that was sold to other protected distributors, with cash from the raid and the sale going into pockets. The necessary violence that any large scale criminal operation can require performed with the immunity of the badge paving the way, the works. As bad as it gets in law enforcement corruption.

Complaints, ineffective. Political process, ineffective. Federal intervention, as it turns out may have been in progress but if it was it wasn't getting anywhere very fast.

And along comes a black man playing traffic rogue and getting the snot beaten out of him. Followed by massive rioting...not because a black man got beat up, but because people were really just fed up. They expected the cops to not police themselves, they didn't, and the ball dropped on a new era.

And here's the thing...that new era was a lot better. In settling the uproar the LAPD took some serious changes at the top, and the whole Rampart fiasco couldn't be just an open sore oozing venom, it eventually got cut out. Lots of other glaring problems got fixed. A whole lot of officers who missed the 'good old days' packed up and moved on.

Now, I'm not saying violence is the only way, or the best way, but it is a way...that has a record of success. So I'm not able to join the hand wringers waiting for the next Gandhi to pop up somewhere in StLouis. If those people don't want to wait I won't encourage it, but I'll understand it. Sometimes the blue problem can get so much momentum that the ongoing damage is accumulating too fast for the system to fix itself.

Cincinnati, by the way, is an example with much greater parallel to StLouis than LA has, but LA is my turf so I know the story better.

 

[JohnRM]

I thought you were referring to the current act of disorder, but now we have a problem, because of position I hold on the record, so to speak.

In 1992 the LAPD suffered from huge and seemingly insurmountable problems. As I have said repeatedly about the problems in TCoMTSNBN, and the problems in my own home town, they were not black problems, they were blue problems. For one, a genuine criminal organization was operating with impunity within the LAPD...unrecorded drug raids to acquire merchandise that was sold to other protected distributors, with cash from the raid and the sale going into pockets. The necessary violence that any large scale criminal operation can require performed with the immunity of the badge paving the way, the works. As bad as it gets in law enforcement corruption.

Complaints, ineffective. Political process, ineffective. Federal intervention, as it turns out may have been in progress but if it was it wasn't getting anywhere very fast.

And along comes a black man playing traffic rogue and getting the snot beaten out of him. Followed by massive rioting...not because a black man got beat up, but because people were really just fed up. They expected the cops to not police themselves, they didn't, and the ball dropped on a new era.

And here's the thing...that new era was a lot better. In settling the uproar the LAPD took some serious changes at the top, and the whole Rampart fiasco couldn't be just an open sore oozing venom, it eventually got cut out. Lots of other glaring problems got fixed. A whole lot of officers who missed the 'good old days' packed up and moved on.

Now, I'm not saying violence is the only way, or the best way, but it is a way...that has a record of success. So I'm not able to join the hand wringers waiting for the next Gandhi to pop up somewhere in StLouis. If those people don't want to wait I won't encourage it, but I'll understand it. Sometimes the blue problem can get so much momentum that the ongoing damage is accumulating too fast for the system to fix itself.

Cincinnati, by the way, is an example with much greater parallel to StLouis than LA has, but LA is my turf so I know the story better.

Indeed, as a famous quote goes: "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history that has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst."

I disagree to what degree violence was necessary to achieve the desired result, but I would not argue that it never works. The United States wouldn't exist, after all, if that were the case. Regardless, in these cases, I oppose it entirely.

Reginald Denny would not agree that it worked out. Latasha Harlins would not agree that it worked out. The people involved in the Battle of Koreatown would not agree that it worked out. The thousands of people who lost their jobs, their businesses, and their homes would not agree that it worked out.

The followers of Martin Luther King, may he rest in peace, demonstrated that peaceful resistance is extremely effective. Now, you might be tempted to point out that civil disobedience was practiced, including sit-ins, but that is a different case because it was these establishments and physical locations that were the subject of the dispute. Blocking the I-5 or looting stores had nothing to do with police corruption in LA.

 

[classical_hero]

If you want to deal with institutional racism in policing, the first thing that needs to happen is for people to accept it actually exists.

Also, black lives need to be seen as being of equal worth as white lives.

If black lives are worth the same, then why is the rate of homicide the single biggest factor for deaths for blacks? Blacks are getting killed by other black at the highest rat of any group and yet we focus on the extremely rare case of a white person killing a black person? This quite frankly shows that people aren't willing to deal with the biggest issue at hand, the violence against each other is the biggest problem to be solved.

 

[Senethro]

If black lives are worth the same, then why is the rate of homicide the single biggest factor for deaths for blacks?

Why don't you tell us instead of trying to deflect attention?

 

[Borachio]

Wow! Feelings run high in this thread.

Let me see if I can post something without getting an infraction.

How about if predominately black areas had a predominantly black police force? You don't think that might help?

 

[useless]

If black lives are worth the same, then why is the rate of homicide the single biggest factor for deaths for blacks? Blacks are getting killed by other black at the highest rat of any group and yet we focus on the extremely rare case of a white person killing a black person? This quite frankly shows that people aren't willing to deal with the biggest issue at hand, the violence against each other is the biggest problem to be solved.

Do you disagree with me that black lives are worth just as much as white lives?

 

[JohnRM]

I think what he is trying to point out is the lack of outrage at the more than 5,000 black deaths, from firearm homicide, that results largely from other blacks pulling the trigger. The implication seems to be that shooting blacks is okay provided that other blacks pull that trigger.

 

[Senethro]

I think what he is trying to point out is the lack of outrage at the more than 5,000 black deaths, from firearm homicide, that results largely from other blacks pulling the trigger. The implication seems to be that shooting blacks is okay provided that other blacks pull that trigger.

Which is such an utterly bizarre implication to make that it belongs in the garbage. You would have to be a very strange person to sincerely believe that other people think that way.

 

[bhsup]

If black lives are worth the same, then why is the rate of homicide the single biggest factor for deaths for blacks? Blacks are getting killed by other black at the highest rat of any group and yet we focus on the extremely rare case of a white person killing a black person? This quite frankly shows that people aren't willing to deal with the biggest issue at hand, the violence against each other is the biggest problem to be solved.

I would think that has more to do with the economic conditions they live in more than anything else combined with being in an urban area. You're simply not going to get much traction if you try to start a gang of fellow unemployed poor white in rural areas who are going to have territorial disputes with other gangs. "This here mountain? It's our mountain. You stay away from our mountain." "Yeah well, that thar creek bed, that's ours. Cross at your own peril."

Also, I cannot see how this has anything to do with topic, unless you want to address issues like witnesses not wanting to talk to the police.

 

[Flying Pig]

Wow! Feelings run high in this thread.

Let me see if I can post something without getting an infraction.

How about if predominately black areas had a predominantly black police force? You don't think that might help?

Reflecting the communities in which it serves is in the interest of the police force too. I remember I once worked with a man who since transferred to what used to be called Special Branch and was doing counter-terrorism in London in the aftermath of the bombings in 2005. He and another officer - two white men with short haircuts - were undercover, sitting in an unmarked car doing surveillance on a suspect in an overwhelmingly Asian area when a passer-by knocked on the window and asked what on earth they were doing there. Simply being white in that area was enough to attract suspicion because, well, they looked like two undercover policemen doing surveillance on a building. Had his unit been able to call on two Asian officers to do the job, they probably wouldn't have attracted comment.

 

[JohnRM]

Also, I cannot see how this has anything to do with topic, unless you want to address issues like witnesses not wanting to talk to the police.

It speaks to the irrationality of these groups. They cannot muster outrage at the more than 5,000 black firearms homicides every year, but a few dead black men, at the hands of a cop, is cause to mobilize in more than 200 cities across America. It is a misallocation of resources that rivals Star Wars. It is not to say police reforms ought to be ignored, but that many of us are rather unsympathetic to attempts to bandage a boo-boo on the finger of the black community, while they have a self-inflicted head wound.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Indeed, as a famous quote goes: "Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history that has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst."

I disagree to what degree violence was necessary to achieve the desired result, but I would not argue that it never works. The United States wouldn't exist, after all, if that were the case. Regardless, in these cases, I oppose it entirely.

Reginald Denny would not agree that it worked out. Latasha Harlins would not agree that it worked out. The people involved in the Battle of Koreatown would not agree that it worked out. The thousands of people who lost their jobs, their businesses, and their homes would not agree that it worked out.

The followers of Martin Luther King, may he rest in peace, demonstrated that peaceful resistance is extremely effective. Now, you might be tempted to point out that civil disobedience was practiced, including sit-ins, but that is a different case because it was these establishments and physical locations that were the subject of the dispute. Blocking the I-5 or looting stores had nothing to do with police corruption in LA.

Two quick things, the first of which is serious...

Martin Luther King was a contemporary of Malcolm X, and his 'extremely effective peaceful resistance' existed side by side the Black Panther movement which provided contrast. I have tremendous respect for Doctor King, and also for peaceful resistance, however the willingness to credit all good effects to the form of resistance one prefers as if it worked in a vacuum is a false argument.

The second is a pure personal anecdote which I will try to present without judgement. When I met Reginald Denny he was a young man in the prime of what looked to be a long life. Due to his injuries he had retired from truck driving. Rather than find another career he had opted to devote full time to managing his investments, which given the size of his portfolio was certainly appropriate. I met him because I happened to be working at a car lot and he was shopping for a sports car. We suggested a Viper, but he settled on an Eclipse. The Viper was used, and cost more than twice what the Eclipse cost new, so it was a frugal choice I suppose, but he seemed to really like the car. He had recovered quite well from his injuries, but needed a cane to walk. He had found that an ordinary cane had limitations, and opted to use a hot blond who had come to LA looking to get into the movie business. There didn't seem to be any romantic connection, it's just obviously more convenient to be able to have your cane run errands while you are sitting down. I said I would try not to make judgements, but he appeared to be pretty happy.

 

[Senethro]

It speaks to the irrationality of these groups. They cannot muster outrage at the more than 5,000 black firearms homicides every year, but a few dead black men, at the hands of a cop, is cause to mobilize in more than 200 cities across America. It is a misallocation of resources that rivals Star Wars. It is not to say police reforms ought to be ignored, but that many of us are rather unsympathetic to attempts to bandage a boo-boo on the finger of the black community, while they have a self-inflicted head wound.

Your ignorance of efforts to tackle gangs and inner city poverty doesn't mean they don't exist. Just google some appropriate words with almost any major city name.

You just wanted an flimsy excuse to call them irrational and to set a ridiculous hurdle of "Well, you can't have police reform until you clean up your own backyard to my satisfaction!"

 

[Cutlass]

For a number of years I had an apartment on a main road, near a school, and a couple blocks from the police department. Living there for years, and going to local businesses and such, I jaywalked across that road, within sight of the police department, maybe over 100 times. never a problem. Yet twice I've seen black kids put into the police car for jaywalking there. Not a pleasant sight.

Like Farmboy, even as a white guy, I've seen cops who throw their weight around when there was no real excuse for their aggression. It's all that much worse for the black community.

What's the answer? There's this thing called the Madison Method of policing. Which is a retraining of police to more of a service orientation. It was beginning to gain some traction before 9/11. But that changed too much. We need to demilitarize. We need to make cops more of a piece of the community, and less of force layered on top to control it. Maybe we need to go back to requiring cops to live in the community they work in.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

For a number of years I had an apartment on a main road, near a school, and a couple blocks from the police department. Living there for years, and going to local businesses and such, I jaywalked across that road, within sight of the police department, maybe over 100 times. never a problem. Yet twice I've seen black kids put into the police car for jaywalking there. Not a pleasant sight.

And yet you continued your blatant law breaking ways. Clearly the local police should have administered severe beatings to the two black kids.

 

[JohnRM]

And yet you continued your blatant law breaking ways. Clearly the local police should have administered severe beatings to the two black kids.

Indeed. A good pistol-whipping should suffice.

Ignore the fact that I was referring to rioters and those who resist arrest by assaulting police officers. I guess the detente is over.

 

[JohnRM]

For a number of years I had an apartment on a main road, near a school, and a couple blocks from the police department. Living there for years, and going to local businesses and such, I jaywalked across that road, within sight of the police department, maybe over 100 times. never a problem. Yet twice I've seen black kids put into the police car for jaywalking there. Not a pleasant sight.

Like Farmboy, even as a white guy, I've seen cops who throw their weight around when there was no real excuse for their aggression. It's all that much worse for the black community.

What's the answer? There's this thing called the Madison Method of policing. Which is a retraining of police to more of a service orientation. It was beginning to gain some traction before 9/11. But that changed too much. We need to demilitarize. We need to make cops more of a piece of the community, and less of force layered on top to control it. Maybe we need to go back to requiring cops to live in the community they work in.

Also, I generally believe/agree with this.