Is Abortion Murder?

[Mark1031]

Is early (first 2 trimesters) abortion murder?

In law, murder is the crime of causing the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill them, or with intent to cause them grievous bodily harm. In most countries it is considered the most serious crime, and invokes the highest punishment available under the law.

This is standard rhetoric in the “right to life” community. If you think it is murder there are several corollaries to this position.

1. My wife is a murderer.

2. Millions of murderers walk the streets of the US.

3. For the past 32 years the US been carrying out one of the largest genocides (or at least mass murders) in history.

4. Many countries are carrying out similar mass murder.

What are the implications of this language? Abortion opponents: should it be toned down? Can the use of this language incite people to violence?

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

I don't see why 'genocide' is being used here.

genocide
The systematic and planned extermination of an entire national, racial, political, or ethnic group.

How does abortion fall under that definition?

 

[Mark1031]

While I guess it is not exactly correct its current usage seems to be interchangable with systematic mass murder. Although I guess you could argue that it targets a group based on developmental age.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Also, I think genocide cant be done to people who havent been born yet.

 

[Duke of Marlbrough]

It seems, the issue that must be resolved before people can answer your question is:

In law, murder is the crime of causing the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill them, or with intent to cause them grievous bodily harm. In most countries it is considered the most serious crime, and invokes the highest punishment available under the law.

When does a fetus become a human being?

 

[nonconformist]

Unless you consider an egg a chicken, no.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I don't see how abortion (within 24 weeks as in UK) can be considered murder given that up intill then it isn't a human being, it's an egg and some sperm which have started to form into one, whch is a different situation. If someone thinks that is murder then do they think that a mans wet dream (to use a term from sex ed!) is manslaughter, because techically each of those sperms coud become a human!

 

[Sickman]

No because it isn't real person yet. Somebody will certainly disagree with this of course...

It's difficult decision to do but it's better to do early as possible rather than later.

EDIT: "human being" replaced with "real person"

 

[classical_hero]

1. My wife is a murderer.

2. Millions of murderers walk the streets of the US.

3. For the past 32 years the US been carrying out one of the largest genocides (or at least mass murders) in history.

4. Many countries are carrying out similar mass murder.

1. Your wife is not a murderer, she is an accessory to a murder, the muderers are the ones who administer the abortion.

2. Very true. I would like justice been done to them

3&4. Shame on countries that allow this practice to occur.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

If someone thinks that is murder then do they think that a mans wet dream (to use a term from sex ed!) is manslaughter, because techically each of those sperms coud become a human!

Im a mass murderer!

 

[Mathilda]

Is early (first 2 trimesters) abortion murder?

First trimester, no problems.
Early second trimester - I suppose if you've got a good excuse why you didin't get round to it earlier - for example serious disability problems discovered with the baby.
The end of second trimester 26-27 weeks is too late already.
Why would you leave it that late?

 

[Mark1031]

Well, using murder in its purely legal sense it is not by definition in countries where it is legal. My main question is regarding the use of the term murder in the abortion argument. I think most people who use it don;t really think of it in the same way as the murder of a 1 or 20 yr old because the implications of that as outlined in the first post are so far reaching that they would provoke more than peaceful protest.

 

[Mark1031]

1. Your wife is not a murderer, she is an accessory to a murder, the muderers are the ones who administer the abortion.

Sorry but by standard legal definitions she is a murderer with special circumstances (murder for hire) which in the US means eligibility for the death penality.

 

[classical_hero]

I don't see how abortion (within 24 weeks as in UK) can be considered murder given that up intill then it isn't a human being, it's an egg and some sperm which have started to form into one, whch is a different situation. If someone thinks that is murder then do they think that a mans wet dream (to use a term from sex ed!) is manslaughter, because techically each of those sperms coud become a human!

You seem to think that each and every sperm and egg needs to get fertilised. Abortion only happens once you have the two come together. Do I really have to explain to the facts of life?

 

[Strider]

It's not what something is at the moment, it's what it will be.

 

[shadowdude]

Murder is the denial of future life, so yes- abortion is murder.

 

[Godwynn]

I do believe abortion is murder.

I do not believe it should be illegal. It's a woman's choice, not mine.

 

[nonconformist]

Is this cruelty to animals?

 

[Uiler]

On an interesting note, according to traditional Jewish religious law, a fetus is only considered a human being once it is born. Well, to be more exact, "if the fetus is born normally, this happens when its forehead has left the birth canal. If the fetus is born feet-first, it happens when more than half of its body has been delivered. This remains the general belief within Judaism today."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/abo_biblh.htm

This is important as Jewish traditional religious law is the law of the Old Testament. Therefore it is clear that the idea of a fetus being a human being is not consistent with the history of Christianity. Since Jesus was a Jew as was his disciples, it is highly probably that the original apostles did not hold the belief that a fetus was a human being, but followed traditional Jewish beliefs that a fetus only became human once they were born.

The Babylonian Talmud Yevamot 69b states that: "the embryo is considered to be mere water until the fortieth day." Afterwards, it is considered subhuman until it is born.

"Rashi, the great 12th century commentator on the Bible and Talmud, states clearly of the fetus 'lav nefesh hu--it is not a person.' The Talmud contains the expression 'ubar yerech imo--the fetus is as the thigh of its mother,' i.e., the fetus is deemed to be part and parcel of the pregnant woman's body." 1 This is grounded in Exodus 21:22. That biblical passage outlines the Mosaic law in a case where a man is responsible for causing a woman's miscarriage, which kills the fetus If the woman survives, then the perpetrator has to pay a fine to the woman's husband. If the woman dies, then the perpetrator is also killed. This indicates that the fetus has value, but does not have the status of a person.

There are two additional passages in the Talmud which shed some light on the Jewish belief about abortion. They imply that the fetus is considered part of the mother, and not a separate entity:
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One section states that if a man purchases a cow that is found to be pregnant, then he is the owner both of the cow and the fetus.
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Another section states that if a pregnant woman converts to Judaism, that her conversion applies also to her fetus.

According to traditional Jewish law, a fetus that endangered its mother could be killed and dismembered during the birth process and removed limb by limb from the birth canal. However this must be done before most of the body leaves the birth canal at which point it is considered human.

A passage from the Mishna quotes a Jewish legal text from the second century CE. It describes the situation in which a woman's life is endangered during childbirth. A D&X procedure (often called Partial Birth Abortion in recent years) might be used under these conditions today. However, this technique was unknown in ancient times. The legal text states that the fetus must be dismembered and removed limb by limb. However, if "the greater part" of the fetus had already been delivered, then the fetus could not be killed. This is based on the belief that the fetus only becomes a person after most of its body emerges from the birth canal. Before personhood has been reached, it may be necessary to "sacrifice a potential life in order to save a fully existent human life, i.e. the pregnant woman in labor." 1 After the forehead emerges from the birth canal, the fetus is regarded as a person. Neither the baby nor the mother can be killed to save the life of the other.

A second consideration is the principle of self-defense. Some Jewish authorities have asserted that if the fetus placed its mother's life at risk, then the mother should be permitted to kill the fetus to save herself, even if the "greater portion [of its body] had already emerged" from the birth canal.

However, it is not carte blanche on abortion as fetuses have the potential to be human and hence have some protections. In modern Jewish law, abortions are not allowed for genetic deformity or for career, but are allowed to save the life or health of the mother, rapes, preventing mental anguish and other similar situations.

Sources: http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_abor.htm

To emphasis, it is extremely likely that the apostles being Jews would have supported abortion at least in some circumstances. So add Peter et al. to the murderers list. And very possibly Jesus too. He was a Jew and I don't believe he ever contradicted the traditional Jewish beliefs on this matter (when exactly a fetus should be considered human and its death murder).

 

[Godwynn]

Is this cruelty to animals?

Would you eat a fetus?

Chickens and humans are not on the same level. If a car is about to run over a human or a chicken, I would save the human.