Is Being Gay a Choice, Not a Choice, or both.

[o-zoe]

Brainwashing? It's the is the other way around if anything: gay people being told and convinced that it is a disease, a disorder, a sin or whatnot.

One thing that is too easily overlooked in any of these discussions is how difficult it is for many gays and lesbians to come out of the closet. All the implications, prejudism, religious aspects. Especially in a smaller or more traditional or more religious community. If choice had anything to do with the matter, being straight would make life a lot easier.

 

[illram]

The problem with this question is it's irrelevant. I usually see it asked by people who want the answer to be "it's a choice" and then use that to attack gays as deviants. Not saying that's what the OP's doing, just my observation.

Who cares "how" people are gay? They are gay, end of discussion. Deal with it.

 

[LucyDuke]

Only gays can answer that question... Opinions of others are not valid.

What about facts? Can't everybody present facts? Because this isn't a question of opinion.

Gay was an example of things we are not born as. I can tell gay people that they are not born gay and the choice they made will keep them from reproducing, which is the only reason humans are born, thus making them a useless human.

I can tell you that you are a potato, but you'll still be a human and I'll still be an idiot.

 

[El_Machinae]

Hit me with your best shot.

I'm gonna agree Phleg: there are almost two types of homosexuality. Innate and learned.

An innate homosexual could be differentiated by such factors such as a specific brain structure at birth (not that you'd be able to see it, but we know it's there from animals and adult autopsies).

Learned homosexuality would probably take awhile, but look at it this way: a person learns to be aroused by certain female features: especially those that involve fashion. Heck, look at the makeup in the 80s and remember that people used to find that hot. Ugh.

And how about Saudis? Their women are covered head to toe. What happens is that the men learn to be attracted to things like the appearance of a bit of skin at the wrists or ankles. Such skin would have no effect on us: but throw us into Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we'll start to be the same.

So, to become homosexual you'd have to partake of lengthy conditioning: maybe really long. But it could be done.

 

[Phlegmak]

Hit me with your best shot.

It takes too long. If Canada attacks the US or vice versa, and I was in the military in charge of "reeducation", and you just happened to be my prisoner, then I'd love to. But until that time, it takes too long, and it's illegal, so no.

 

[warpus]

I'm gonna agree Phleg: there are almost two types of homosexuality. Innate and learned.

An innate homosexual could be differentiated by such factors such as a specific brain structure at birth (not that you'd be able to see it, but we know it's there from animals and adult autopsies).

Learned homosexuality would probably take awhile, but look at it this way: a person learns to be aroused by certain female features: especially those that involve fashion. Heck, look at the makeup in the 80s and remember that people used to find that hot. Ugh.

And how about Saudis? Their women are covered head to toe. What happens is that the men learn to be attracted to things like the appearance of a bit of skin at the wrists or ankles. Such skin would have no effect on us: but throw us into Saudi Arabia for a few years, and we'll start to be the same.

So, to become homosexual you'd have to partake of lengthy conditioning: maybe really long. But it could be done.

I think you're wrong.

The things you mention (makeup, fashion, etc.) are just accessories. You can condition yourself to like some over others, sure... but what we're (heterosexual men) are really after is the WOMAN. The rest is just details.

 

[Phlegmak]

Here's another tidbit of knowledge I learned as a child.

A study I read about said this. Monkeys (or other primates) were separated from their little social group from birth. They grew up not knowing how to mate or that they were supposed to mate.

Humans aren't monkeys or chimps, of course, but I've always found that study I just mentioned as pretty damn convincing that humans aren't innately heterosexual or homosexual.

In other posts in this thread, I mentioned "brainwashing" as a successful means of changing behavior. It is indeed successful, but what I'm trying to get at is environmental factors are critical to a child becoming whatever it's going to become. For humans, the sort of study I mentioned simply cannot be done, except maybe in North Korea or the former Soviet Union. So I have no way to prove what I'm telling you. We do have other societies to look at where homosexuality is much more common, such as in some societies in the Pacific Islands though.

Here's something to make people angry: Homosexuality is a social invention.

 

[mdwh]

I was recently walking down the hall of my college when I saw a poster advertising a debate on whether being gay was a choice or not a choice. I always felt that it was a choice for some, and not a choice for others(Genetics, some other thing).

The question being asked should be: Is sexual orientation a choice? (By framing it as "Being gay is a choice", this misleadingly suggests that being straight is normal; that gay people consciously chose whilst straight people didn't; and means people can claim that gay people could go out with the opposite sex if they themselves wanted, even though they would never consider doing so with the same gender.) E.g., take El_Machinae's above - I would hope he has the same view if we replaced "homosexuality" with "heterosexuality" in what he wrote (and if so, I would agree; elements of our sexuality in general is probably part innate and part learned - though I don't think you could categorise people into one or the other, rather it's a combination for all of us).

I suspect your answer is correct - the people who can choose are basically bisexual (though if they make a choice for one sex only, they may often identify as straight/gay, leaving "bisexual" for those who actively seek relationships from any gender).

From the point of view of myself being bi, for all I know, perhaps everyone is like this. But many straight guys would insist they most certainly aren't attracted to other men, and there isn't any choice in the matter.

Also, such people who choose between men or women still didn't choose their sexuality - they only choose who they do things with. It's the question of whether we define sexual orientation in terms of attraction, or actions, and it's more commonly defined as the former.

 

[El_Machinae]

I think you're wrong.

The things you mention (makeup, fashion, etc.) are just accessories. You can condition yourself to like some over others, sure... but what we're (heterosexual men) are really after is the WOMAN. The rest is just details.

It's okay if we disagree, because it's not like I'm gonna snatch you to test my theory.

I think that, more than women, we want a combination of love and getting our rocks off. At that point, we're just discussing accessories

I'm not saying it would be easy!

 

[Erik Mesoy]

PRO-GAY:
If being gay is a choice, people should be free to choose it, and if it's not, we can't fault people for it.

ANTI-GAY:
If being gay is a choice, we should hold people responsible for it, and if it's not, we should treat it like a disease to be resisted/cured.

--
There goes much of the thread. Then there are a few people making arguments by assertion and saying "I say so and it's obvious that I'm right".

The rest appears to be El_Mach talking about neurostructure in his usual clever way.

 

[warpus]

It's okay if we disagree, because it's not like I'm gonna snatch you to test my theory.

Aww.

Gay me up!

 

[Phlegmak]

I have this third position: Neither pro-gay nor anti-gay: it's both learned and inherent. It's neither bad nor good (morality is irrelevant). It just is. And gays should be left alone to do what they want.

 

[Ansar]

Leave a baby alone with nothing to teach it. It will never learn anything.

Well, you know, there's this thing called curiosity...

 

[erez87]

Actually leaving a baby alone will make him die.

But if he survives, you know that thing called imagination? The baby will learn to imagine what he needs. He will use (as said before me) curiosity to look for more things.

How you think people come up with ideas? By choice? People choose to think up some new idea? They may think of trying... But can they say "Today I'll create the idea of nuclear bombs" or does it come to them out of nowhere? (Maybe that one was a bad example but hopefully you get me).

As long as I remember myself I was gay. I liked girls at times, but never was attracted to them. Never. I also answer to everyone who say why won't you try and choose girls, try to choose boys!


It was not a choice, and if it was some uncontentious choice it doesn't change the fact that I am gay.



Btw saying being Gay make someone useless does not know animals. There many herd animals that are born and never reproduce. Wolves, Ants, Lions. Some of those will never get to mate with a female (or in the ants case, a male) and yet they exist. Can you say their useless? That extra wolf that will never mate brings meat to it's family, helping at least half of it's genes spread. The ants? They evolved to be workers. If they will have children they will be less genetically close to them then to their sisters, so helping the queen reproduce actually makes them spread their genes. Even so did you know bees sometimes try to kill all the males the queen brought up because their genetically not as close as a sister would be? And those are the useless bees that can't reproduce, doing something to make sure their genes do spread.

In humanity if there was no gene that makes males allow other males to be around without warring constantly for the females than we wouldn't have a society that males can be next to each other. Maybe when that gene is increased, or mixed with several other genes creates this effect into a too strong effect, and makes males completely be attracted to other males, and not only just allow other males to be around. Same exact rules go for females.



And to all those who wants to know how many gays there really are in the world. once no one will hate them, you will know. For know it's said 8% of the population is gay. I'll go with that.

 

[slip79]

The problem with this question is it's irrelevant. I usually see it asked by people who want the answer to be "it's a choice" and then use that to attack gays as deviants. Not saying that's what the OP's doing, just my observation.

Who cares "how" people are gay? They are gay, end of discussion. Deal with it.

Good call.

 

[Communisto]

This question is about as important as asking "Is liking tomoatoes a choice?".

 

[ohcrapitsnico]

I can't find a reason or instance where one chose to be gay and fell right into place. Its rather were you born gay or did you grow into it.

 

[Smellincoffee]

We dance to our genes.

 

[Angst]

Yoooooou aaaaaaaare gaaaaaaay!
Liiiiisten tooooooo the voooooooice!
Youuuuuuuuuu aaaaaaaaare aaaaaaa hoooooomosexuaaaaaaaal!!

 

[Japanrocks12]

... but acting on your urges is definitely a choice!

you say that like acting on your urges is always a bad thing