Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[uppi]

How quickly will immigration to GB be affected? What will happen to the status of those "foreigners" now living in GB?

That would be subject to the exit treaty that is supposed to be negotiated once the UK formally announces its intent to leave the EU.

Theoretically there would be multiple options ranging from retaining freedom of movement to expelling everybody.

Personal guess: EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in the EU get automatic visas if they have been living there for x years.

 

[Lohrenswald]

The definition of the right is moving as well. Things you might consider securely left are now considered right-wing nowadays.

It's actually increasingly more a flavour, if anything.

Socialism and anti-globalism aren't right wing

Yeah, because a bunch of separate countries are going to have much better worker's rights when they all race to the bottom between each other to attract companies, than a big block which can at least impose some basic rights.

But remember, it's the evil non-democratic EU which is against people's rights !

It is against people's rights, and for corporations' rights.

I don't understand what this "race to the bottom" you mention is supposed to be.

Also, national sovereignty is better than the big union thing

What ? Young people voted to remain because they are right wing ? The only way to get a Tobn tax is without the EU ?
That just doesn't make any sense. I guess a small country could pass a Tobin tax on it's own, but it would be pretty pointless.
Much of the moderate left is quite pro EU or indifferent, it's mostly the far right or far left that's anti EU. I consider myself a very left-wing guy overall, but I am also very in favor of the EU. Sure, it's not perfect and it often does shady and questionable stuff like negotiating CETA and TTIP, but I have no illusions that many national governments of Europe -the UK and Germany in particular- are worse, and left to their own devices would have already passed something like TTIP. For all it's faults, the EU does a decent job of mitigating the damage that national lobbies can do and preventing a race to the bottom in regulations and labor laws.

I don't know what a tobin tax is, I've never heard the term.

The "moderate left" is actually right wing.

And again: the EU is inherently against worker's rights. The only hope I see is in the individual states. I don't mean that it'll magically happen, or that it'll be easy, though.

That's what Norway and Switzerland are doing right now, as I understand it. They don't have the word on the rules, and they still choose to follow them. They can have the illusion of doing that out of their own volition though.

The pillow and banana regulations and that kind of things are a common material of urban legends. I once read a book that followed these, some cabbage thing originated from the US and translated in Europe to be EU-bureaucracy. Some of them may have truth in them, possible much even, but still people might not know the whole backstories of them. I don't think the EU-bureaucrats set directives just for the fun of it.

I can tell you that I'm under no illusion. I want us to leave EEA yesterday.

 

[AdrienIer]

Socialism and anti-globalism aren't right wing



It is against people's rights, and for corporations' rights.

I don't understand what this "race to the bottom" you mention is supposed to be.

Also, national sovereignty is better than the big union thing



I don't know what a tobin tax is, I've never heard the term.

The "moderate left" is actually right wing.

And again: the EU is inherently against worker's rights. The only hope I see is in the individual states. I don't mean that it'll magically happen, or that it'll be easy, though.

I can tell you that I'm under no illusion. I want us to leave EEA yesterday.

Race to the bottom : lowering of taxes to attract corporation headquarters leading to your neighbors lowering theres to be even more attractive leading to a huge loss for everyone.

Tobin tax : small (0.001% or something) tax on all financial transactions to slow down the constant automated microtransactions that are plaguing our economy. Essentially a way to restrain the financial sector, except the UK refused it categorically and the EU ended up not doing it

 

[Akka]

It is against people's rights, and for corporations' rights.

I don't understand what this "race to the bottom" you mention is supposed to be.

Also, national sovereignty is better than the big union thing

[...]
I don't know what a tobin tax is, I've never heard the term.

God, three slogans, zero information, that's depressing...

 

[Lohrenswald]

God, three slogans, zero information, that's depressing...

You're not doing any better.

Only difference between us is that you are better articulated.

 

[Arakhor]

The Tories have at least raised the national minimum wage every year for several years now, but they haven't got rid of zero-hour contracts or the like. Even if the EU are pro-corporation and anti-workforce (which are two big ifs), they're (at worst!) merely on par with the Tories.

 

[Akka]

You're not doing any better.

Only difference between us is that you are better articulated.

No, I actually gave an argument, to which you answered with lack of knowledge and a bunch of slogans.
I don't know how you manage to equate the two, but here you go.

 

[Arakhor]

1.1 million people have now signed an official petition calling on the Government to impose a 60% minimum barrier for successfully leaving or staying in the EU. Parliament must now set a date and debate the issue.

Since I posted that just ten hours ago, the amount of signatures has more than doubled. It's at 2.35 million recorded signatures, with even more nearly every time you hit Refresh.

 

[Lohrenswald]

The Tories have at least raised the national minimum wage every year for several years now, but they haven't got rid of zero-hour contracts or the like. Even if the EU are pro-corporation and anti-workforce (which are two big ifs), they're (at worst!) merely on par with the Tories.

1. Leave EU
2. Don't vote tories

Win

No, I actually gave an argument, to which you answered with lack of knowledge and a bunch of slogans.
I don't know how you manage to equate the two, but here you go.

You made a claim, not an argument.
And my claims were not slogans, I don't know how you reached that notion.

 

[Arakhor]

1. Leave EU
2. Don't vote tories

I think you may have missed the bit where I have personally never voted Conservative in my life. In fact, I don't recall backing the winning horse politically in probably ten years.

 

[AdrienIer]

Lohrenswald I explained the two things you didn't understand about Akka's post (and who were at the center of his argument). Anything to say about that ?

 

[Lohrenswald]

I think you may have missed the bit where I have personally never voted Conservative in my life. In fact, I don't recall backing the winning horse politically in probably ten years.

I mean that Britain at large has to not vote tories.

Also the people leading in EU political institutions are basically tories, so EU won't help either way.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Lohrenswald I explained the two things you didn't understand about Akka's post (and who were at the center of his argument). Anything to say about that ?

Yes

On race to the bottom: don't do it
Make national companies if necessary

On Tobin tax: seems way too small, but it seems like the kind of thing that EU is against.

 

[Rashiminos]

No, I actually gave an argument, to which you answered with lack of knowledge and a bunch of slogans.
I don't know how you manage to equate the two, but here you go.

In lieu of personal argumentation:

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/25...ailure-of-western-establishment-institutions/

Brexit is Only the Latest Proof of the Insularity and Failure of Western Establishment Institutions
Glenn Greenwald
June 25 2016, 11:48 a.m.

The decision by UK voters to leave the EU is such a glaring repudiation of the wisdom and relevance of elite political and media institutions that – for once – their failures have become a prominent part of the storyline. Media reaction to the Brexit vote falls into two general categories: (1) earnest, candid attempts to understand what motivated voters to make this choice, even if that means indicting one’s own establishment circles, and (2) petulant, self-serving, simple-minded attacks on disobedient pro-leave voters for being primitive, xenophobic bigots (and stupid to boot), all to evade any reckoning with their own responsibility. Virtually every reaction that falls into the former category emphasizes the profound failures of western establishment factions; these institutions have spawned pervasive misery and inequality, only to spew condescending scorn at their victims when they object.

...

 

[AdrienIer]

"Don't do it" is not a solution. It's already happening and without the EU would be worse.

Tobin tax was supported by the EU until the UK said no way

 

[Arakhor]

I mean that Britain at large has to not vote tories.

Well, that's a useless statement. The cure to being held hostage by your own countrymen is to not be held hostage by your own countrymen in a different way?

 

[Lohrenswald]

"Don't do it" is not a solution. It's already happening and without the EU would be worse.

Tobin tax was supported by the EU until the UK said no way

I mean that the race to the bottom thing needs to end

I probably shouldn't talk too much about the tobin tax since I just now heard about it.

Well, that's a useless statement. The cure to being held hostage by your own countrymen is to not be held hostage by your own countrymen in a different way?

I don't understand
You oppose opposing tories?

 

[Arakhor]

Of course not. I interpreted your post to mean that to restore workers' rights, we have to leave the EU and not vote Tory, basically meaning that because 52% of Britons have now screamed at the EU that they're puncturing their own ball and going home, we now have to avoid 40% of Britons voting Tory as well. That Venn diagram is getting smaller - and that's without mentioning the possible loss of the Scottish electorate!

 

[Lohrenswald]

Of course not. I interpreted your post to mean that to restore workers' rights, we have to leave the EU and not vote Tory, basically meaning that because 52% of Britons have now screamed at the EU that they're puncturing their own ball and going home, we now have to avoid 40% of Britons voting Tory as well. That Venn diagram is getting smaller - and that's without mentioning the possible loss of the Scottish electorate!

Alright yea, that's what I meant.

I said it wasn't going to be easy.

 

[AdrienIer]

With Scotland probably leaving shortly I don't see a non-tory coalition winning an election anytime soon