Election results should also be this kind of only consultative thing. I mean the plebs can vote, but what do they know, amirite
Is Britain about to leave the EU?
- Thread starter Mega Tsunami
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Election results should also be this kind of only consultative thing. I mean the plebs can vote, but what do they know, amirite
Germany went through a "German style austerity" before the crisis, so its budget was manageable and let them do stimulus spending during the crisis. What worked for them when things were fine does not work for other countries when their economy is slowed down, but they didn't care.
My comment wasn't about how things should be but on how things are. I'm generally more favorable to binding referendums on important questions.
Manfred Belheim
Moaner Lisa
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A good fair and balanced post. Right until the last two words.
As one of the main recipients of regional funds, you do have to wonder what the Cornish thought they were playing at. Even if the infamous £350m went straight to the NHS, the Cornish would still be directly worse off. I'd rather assume incompetence than malice, though.
Manfred Belheim
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Maybe money isn't everything? Radical idea.
I think the key take-away of Brexit is the now undeniable rise of populism in Europe. The strategy of European elites, both on the left and on the right, has been for the last decades to insult or simply ignore the segments of the population that hold "backwards" views. This is not going to work if the segment reaches a certain threshold.
The Brexit vote was a rejection of elites in general. The economic elites, from industrialists to bankers, were heavily in favor of staying in the EU. The cultural and political elites as well. And they lost.
More left-wing people will paint this as a reaction against "neoliberalism" and inequality, for which the EU is (wrongly) blamed) More right-wing people will see this as a reaction against the snobbish and holier-than-thou attitude of the leftist elites, who accuse everyone who thinks different of being a bigot. But I think there are multiple dissatisfactions, not only in the UK but also in France and other European countries:
-Large segments of workers are indeed unhappy about the pace of globalization and liberalization, which they see as resulting in less job security, stagnant or falling wages, and worse working conditions.
-These same sectors are completely alienated by mainstream left-wing parties, whose main concerns now are simply to push for mass immigration, multi-culturalism, environmentalism and LGBT issues. If anything, this segment of the population tends to be hostile to illimited immigration, which they see as further compressing their wages, and multi-culturalism, which further attacks their "old way of life".
-Simultaneously, nobody is very impressed by the far-left, which is offering in 2016 solutions which were tried and failed in 1917, and is just as likely (if not more) as the mainstream left to go on crusades about multi-culturalism, LGBT issues and other stuff that is very far from the heart of the working poor. Which is why the far-left is disappearing in countries such as France.
-Hence, votes like Brexit, which is essentially a huge shot in the foot, but also a middle finger to elites of all political persuasions. Also, the rise of the far right in continental Europe.
-La solution? Je ne sais pas.
The Brexit vote was a rejection of elites in general. The economic elites, from industrialists to bankers, were heavily in favor of staying in the EU. The cultural and political elites as well. And they lost.
More left-wing people will paint this as a reaction against "neoliberalism" and inequality, for which the EU is (wrongly) blamed) More right-wing people will see this as a reaction against the snobbish and holier-than-thou attitude of the leftist elites, who accuse everyone who thinks different of being a bigot. But I think there are multiple dissatisfactions, not only in the UK but also in France and other European countries:
-Large segments of workers are indeed unhappy about the pace of globalization and liberalization, which they see as resulting in less job security, stagnant or falling wages, and worse working conditions.
-These same sectors are completely alienated by mainstream left-wing parties, whose main concerns now are simply to push for mass immigration, multi-culturalism, environmentalism and LGBT issues. If anything, this segment of the population tends to be hostile to illimited immigration, which they see as further compressing their wages, and multi-culturalism, which further attacks their "old way of life".
-Simultaneously, nobody is very impressed by the far-left, which is offering in 2016 solutions which were tried and failed in 1917, and is just as likely (if not more) as the mainstream left to go on crusades about multi-culturalism, LGBT issues and other stuff that is very far from the heart of the working poor. Which is why the far-left is disappearing in countries such as France.
-Hence, votes like Brexit, which is essentially a huge shot in the foot, but also a middle finger to elites of all political persuasions. Also, the rise of the far right in continental Europe.
-La solution? Je ne sais pas.
Old Hippy
Deity
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how soon people forget the 350 million bus that stood behind so many leave proponents, maybe people can't read and your right its not about money
It may not be everything, but if the council can't pay the bills, maintain local services and so on, who do you think those very same voters will blame?
Rashiminos
Fool Prophet
For some it was "Project Autonomy from Secretive Supergovernment."
GoodSarmatian
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That's kind of what we have. First-past-the-post systems can completely ignore most votes depending on how districts are structured, and proportional representation can result in a coalition government that nobody wanted.
So, when you say German style austerity you don't mean austerity at all, you just mean reasonably competent governance and tax collection when there isn't a crisis.
Not really. Germany may have done stimulus spending for a short while, but now its budget does not call for new debt the third year in a row. In a time when investors give German federal government money for the privilege to finance its debts, that is definitely austerity. Fortunately, the economy is doing well enough that austerity can be implemented without major budget cuts, but at the moment the German government definitely spends less than it should.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
Money = freedom.
Verbose
Deity
It already was.
What has bow been shaken is rather a kind of complacent assumption that the populist radical alternatives will never ever be applied not really, not in one of the big players, the countries that really count, like the UK, not as an outcome of voter choice.
The Brexit outcome demonstrates that radical political shifts are perfectly possible. Whether that emboldens the ones that actually want them, or leads to a sobering up in various national polities where it is otherwise assumed protest-voting can be done as much as one cares, since it won't actually lead to anything, certainly not change for some kind of uncertain future.
The other bit is the interesting realisation that if there's someplace in the EU where the national politics, democratic as it may be, is highly dysfunctional it's the UK.
Or as some headlines are now ponting out the break-up of Britain has begun.
Verbose
Deity
Lack-of-money = lack-of-options, more like.
Rashiminos
Fool Prophet
Is that supposed to be a pro-EU argument or an anti-EU argument?
Snorrius
Librivorator
«Everything is mine», — the gold have said,
«Everything is mine», — the sword have said.
«Everything I'll buy», — the gold have said,
«Everything I'll take», — the sword have said.
Alexandr Pushkin, 1827
GoodSarmatian
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Well, yeah. When the economy is doing well you start saving up and reducing the debt. Germany went deeper into the red when the crisis hit and debt grew from 65% GDP in 2007 to over 80% in 2013. Now we have a balanced budget again. That's classical Keynesianism.
And now it seems that someone has started a different petition to actually get that £350m a week for the NHS. I'd like to see this particular promise being handwaved as an "aspiration". 
(Fun fact: at least one of the comments indicates that some people really did vote to Leave based on this specific lie.)
(Fun fact: at least one of the comments indicates that some people really did vote to Leave based on this specific lie.)
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Calls it like I sees it.
That's really just "Project Foreign People-Fear" for the middle class, though. Country doctors don't worry about Romanians stealing their jobs, so they worry about Belgians stealing their government.
I mean, let's be realistic: no sincere proponent of openness and confederalism would vote in favour of further powers accruing to Westminster, at least not with any enthusiasm, any more than pigs would vote for increased bacon production.
Kozmos
Jew Detective
Swords are expensive. Case in point the high cost of even military training, upkeep, let alone the assortment of modern equipment an army needs to be relevant on the battlefield.
It boils down to the same thing. Without any money all you are free is to be chased by the police for disturbing public order or living in the hills like a mountain man. Excellent spectrum of choices.
Depends on the quality of life the UK enjoys post Brexit. I doubt they will get much richer, at least without compromising the QOL its population enjoys now.
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