Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[EnglishEdward]

I don't think you're really thinking this through - however much we pay for Microsoft's products, we're getting the products for it. Trade happens when the buyer values the product more than the money that it costs, and the seller values the money more than the product.

Software is not like tangible goods where ownership actually transfers.

We pay for it, but Microsoft still own all of the product.

But all this is a diversion from the thread title.

 

[EnglishEdward]

A thing i dont understand is on one hand the british euroskeptics here are saying UK is having an economical boom but on the other hand they are not happy about being in the EU. Dont they think that the said economical boom may be thanks to being in the EU? Do they think leaving the EU will turn the boom into a nuclear boooommmm and dont care to risk seeing it turned into a big crashhhh instead? Or the main reason to leave the EU is about "national pride" and other silly things like the refugee crisis?

This euroskeptic does not believe that there is an economic boom in the UK.

 

[really]

But I still don’t think that would happen – I honestly think that if we vote Leave, we would all go back to the drawing board and make a new (London) Treaty which would describe how Britain (and other countries like Sweden and Denmark if they wished) would sit in the EU. Call it some sort of Associate Membership of the EU and I am sure we would vote a big fat Yes to that.

That already exists - it is essentially Norway position.
Most of the costs and obligations. Little say in the rules.

 

[Oerdin]

Most of them seem to object to the lose of sovereignty, the flood of migrants entering and then sucking up excessive welfare thus burdening the taxpayers, and the excessive regulations out of Brussels. Yes, standards for finished products would remain if the finished product was sold on the continent but there are a ton of up stream regulations which could be repealed and thus improve economic performance.

Over all, I expect them to stay in the EU but get exemptions and an opt in for regulations instead of an opt out. Meaning unless they otherwise say the regulations automatically do not apply to the UK.

 

[Arakhor]

Meaning unless they otherwise say the regulations automatically do not apply to the UK.

That really is a farcical idea. The European regulations (including human rights) are one of the best things to come out of the EU.

 

[Flying Pig]

I'm glad to find somebody else who thinks that - all too often you find people saying that it's wonderful to have rules stopping foreign governments from allowing or requiring stupid things, and then getting up in arms when anyone suggests that the same might apply to our own.

 

[uppi]

Over all, I expect them to stay in the EU but get exemptions and an opt in for regulations instead of an opt out. Meaning unless they otherwise say the regulations automatically do not apply to the UK.

Allowing that would be worse for the EU than kicking the UK out. So it is not going to happen.

 

[Arakhor]

I also don't trust the Tories not to instantly try to mess everything up if they suddenly weren't bound by EU laws. They're already massacring health, education and corporate tax bills.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

That really is a farcical idea. The European regulations (including human rights) are one of the best things to come out of the EU.

So, a country that gave the world Magna Carta and habeus corpus cannot decide for itself what human rights are appropriate?
And a continent that gave us Napoleon, Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco dictates to us about human rights?

I also don't trust the Tories not to instantly try to mess everything up if they suddenly weren't bound by EU laws.

This is surely very much at the heart of how the vote will tend to go in June. Britain is essentially a conservative, right of centre country whilst Europe is, essentially, socialist. That is one of the main reasons why Conservatives tend to be anti the EU and Socialists tend to be pro the EU. Socialists love the fact socialist ideals are forced on us by the EU and Conservatives hate it. Socialists don’t care much if these ideals come from non-democratic institutions; Conservatives think these things should be decided by the electorate of Britain.

Conversely, if we happened to be voting to become the 51st State of the USofA (instead of confirming we are the 28th State of the USofE), the Conservatives would love all the ideals being forced upon us and socialists would hate them.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

So, a country that gave the world Magna Carta and habeus corpus cannot decide for itself what human rights are appropriate?

Also the Bloody Code, Cecil Rhodes, the East India Company, the Opium Wars, concentration camps in Kenya...

 

[Arakhor]

So, a country that gave the world Magna Carta and habeus corpus cannot decide for itself what human rights are appropriate?
And a continent that gave us Napoleon, Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco dictates to us about human rights?

Every German-speaking emperor has been a kaiser, by definition. Besides which, are you trying to spoof a Eurosceptic position now? That was such a hilariously out-of-whack response that I could quite imagine someone like Russell Howard or Dara O'Briain saying that on stage in imitation of what a Eurosceptic might say.

 

[Verbose]

So, a country that gave the world Magna Carta and habeus corpus cannot decide for itself what human rights are appropriate?
And a continent that gave us Napoleon, Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco dictates to us about human rights?

The EU HAS real enemies, and they are coming from exactly the same place as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Stalin.

The EU is the latest iteration in a struggle extending back at least to the 1789 "déclaration des droits de l'homme".

You're worried about the strength of the forces ranged against the EU on this score? Well, by rights you should be. They are alive and kicking, looking for opportunities and a new lease of life.

Of course, whether the British conclusion should be to run away from the fight this time or not, is entirely up to them. The conflict will be settled where it has always mattered — mainland Europe.

Though I dare say the next time things go down in a serious way in Europe, the UK can be of course also be on the side of the enemies of human rights and freedoms, if it so likes...

 

[dutchfire]

Britain is essentially a conservative, right of centre country whilst Europe is, essentially, socialist.

 

[Lillefix]

Proves his point. Blood red communists all of them...

 

[Flying Pig]

Software is not like tangible goods where ownership actually transfers.

We pay for it, but Microsoft still own all of the product.

But all this is a diversion from the thread title.

You can consider that exactly the same as when you pay for services, though. There's no need to become obsessed with tangible goods, as long as you receive tangible benefits - which, from using software, you definitely do, whether it's extra productivity (and money) in a business or simply enjoyment at home.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

Every German-speaking emperor has been a kaiser, by definition. Besides which, are you trying to spoof a Eurosceptic position now? That was such a hilariously out-of-whack response that I could quite imagine someone like Russell Howard or Dara O'Briain saying that on stage in imitation of what a Eurosceptic might say.

No more spoofy than you saying human rights were one of the best thing to come out of Europe. Why can’t we do these things ourselves? Don’t you think it a little absurd that they, or anyone else for that matter, should be directing us on human rights?

Eg. We should be able to deport criminals if we want and not be denied by Europe.
Eg. If we want to continue denying prisoners the right to vote we should be able to do so. (OK, we eventually won that one at about the fifth time of asking, but it should never have been taken to court in the first place).

The EU HAS real enemies, and they are coming from exactly the same place as Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and Stalin.

The EU is the latest iteration in a struggle extending back at least to the 1789 "déclaration des droits de l'homme".

You're worried about the strength of the forces ranged against the EU on this score? Well, by rights you should be. They are alive and kicking, looking for opportunities and a new lease of life.

Of course, whether the British conclusion should be to run away from the fight this time or not, is entirely up to them. The conflict will be settled where it has always mattered — mainland Europe.

Though I dare say the next time things go down in a serious way in Europe, the UK can be of course also be on the side of the enemies of human rights and freedoms, if it so likes...

I don’t see the dangers you seem to see, and I am not questioning Europe’s current human rights. I am simply saying we are in a better position to decide our own, that’s all.

 

[Flying Pig]

The fact that we keep trying to disenfranchise all prisoners - that is, if you happen to have been sentenced to two weeks in jail, and that happens to fall over polling day, you have no say in the politics of the next five years - is a really good argument for allowing the EU to override member states' populist but bad human rights policy.

 

[really]

So, a country that gave the world Magna Carta and habeus corpus cannot decide for itself what human rights are appropriate?
And a continent that gave us Napoleon, Kaiser, Hitler, Mussolini and Franco dictates to us about human rights?

Classic stuff - The European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights are a product of the Council of Europe, not the EU.

Belarus is is the only non signatory in Europe.

Which human rights exactly do you have a problem with?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Convention_articles

 

[gay_Aleks]

Right, but of course. We should ignore the works of Rousseau, Voltaire and all the other philosophers from the continent because there's a bunch of murderous bastards out there.

Of course, Britain has no history of oppressing other nations and robbing them of their wealth and squashing anyone who resists.

 

[Mega Tsunami]

The fact that we keep trying to disenfranchise all prisoners - that is, if you happen to have been sentenced to two weeks in jail, and that happens to fall over polling day, you have no say in the politics of the next five years - is a really good argument for allowing the EU to override member states' populist but bad human rights policy.

You know what, you might be right.
But the point is it should be up to our Parliament to decides it, not Europe – and if we don’t like it we can kick them out every four or five years. We have no such power in Europe.
Except, perhaps, for this once-in-a-lifetime vote in June.

Classic stuff - The European Convention on Human Rights and the European Court of Human Rights are a product of the Council of Europe, not the EU.

?? I never mentioned the EU/European Court. I said ‘continent’.
But you know full well they all go (virtually) hand in hand anyway.
Is America signed up to the European Convention etc.?

Which human rights exactly do you have a problem with?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights#Convention_articles

Not many, I am sure (if any). I just think it should be up to us to decide.