Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Arwon]

It makes no sense for the people of the UK to be denied
the right to hold a referendum on self determination
merely because the Irish do not agree with themselves.

It would be a victory for sectarianism and terrorism to let the
fear of it, preclude us from exercising the democratic process.

I want you to remember this cavalier attitude if the conflict starts again.

 

[Bootstoots]

This is a well thought out summary.

However the position does vary from country to country. I am not convinced the
UK populists will evolve into fascists and hope that the left will move away from its
ineffective internationalism back to its local community base where it started from.

I mean, what constitutes fascism is a hotly contested point. Some people define the term so narrowly that Mussolini and co. were the only real fascists (not just Fascists), some define it so broadly that anyone who wants to curb immigration and appeals to popular anger is a fascist. Dachs said something interesting in the Republican Nomination thread months ago where he pointed out that fascists historically denied the importance of the individual as opposed to the state, while none of the current right-wing populists seem to do that.

Whatever they're called, right-wing populists have been doing a great job of appealing to racism and other xenophobia within the disgruntled white working-to-middle class population, and any victory by them will be heavily colored by this. Further, many appear to be quite illiberal in their views about democracy. Where the left goes wrong is in trying to reduce the rise of right-wing populism to just xenophobia and hate, and try to dismiss it on those grounds. It's not just that, it's a cry by people who have been abandoned and scorned by the politicians and businessmen in charge, and who have good reason to be angry. Now that most of the established left have abdicated their positions as defenders of labor, they are turning in droves to the right-wing populists.

It's anyone's guess where this all ends up. But right now it doesn't look like it's going anywhere good...

 

[EnglishEdward]

and to exercise that democratic process you really need to let Scotland and NI stay in the EU that what self determination is they have made their wishes known.

Yes, the Scots voted firstly for Scotland to remain in
the UK and secondly for the UK as whole to remain in the EU.


However it is incorrect to interpret the latter Scots vote as a vote
for Scotland to leave the English-Scottish union and remain in the EU.


The options for Scotland were:

..........................Remain in EU....Leave EU
Remain in UK..........A......................B
Leave UK...............C......................D


Option A (remaining in both EU and UK) has been eliminated:


The options for Scotland now are:

(B) Remain in UK and leave EU
(C) Leave the UK and apply to join/remain in EU
(D) Leave the UK and not apply to join/leave the EU

I agree that the Scots should have another vote.

 

[EnglishEdward]

The truth is it locks me into a job i was intending to leave in the near future. Now i cannot. Unless i want to lose a whole fist of money.

Tell me.

If the UK had voted 'Remain' would you have been filling
this thread with profuse thanks for their judgement.

 

[EnglishEdward]

I want you to remember this cavalier attitude if the conflict starts again.

There is nothing cavalier in us exercising our right to vote.

I refer to Benjamin Franklin:

They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety

.

And we won't get liberty or safety if we surrender our vote to appease terrorists.

 

[AdrienIer]

Yes, the Scots voted firstly for Scotland to remain in
the UK and secondly for the UK as whole to remain in the EU.


However it is incorrect to interpret the latter Scots vote as a vote
for Scotland to leave the English-Scottish union and remain in the EU.

If you put the two votes (Scottish independence and EU referendum) together it's pretty clear that the Scots will vote to leave the UK, and after that will vote to rejoin the EU. The 44% who voted to leave the UK last time won't go away, and out of the 55% at least 1/3 wanted to stay in the EU. If even 1/3 out of those people (representing 6% of the Scottish population) care more about being in the EU than about being in the UK then there will be a majority in Scotland voting for leaving the UK.

But you're right on one thing : you should just let them vote again, and see what happens.

 

[EnglishEdward]

If you put the two votes (Scottish independence and EU referendum) together it's pretty clear that the Scots will vote to leave the UK, and after that will vote to rejoin the EU.

Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Some Scots may have tactically voted to Remain with the specific intention of forcing
a second Referendum on whether Scotland splits from England without necessarily
being committed to remaining, and some Scots may have voted Remain because they
genuinely wished to remain, but regard retaining the union as more important.

The 44% who voted to leave the UK last time won't go away, and out of the 55% at least 1/3 wanted to stay in the EU. If even 1/3 out of those people (representing 6% of the Scottish population) care more about being in the EU than about being in the UK then there will be a majority in Scotland voting for leaving the UK.

This is a not unreasonable analysis.

But you're right on one thing : you should just let them vote again, and see what happens.

The Scots still have some fun questions to ask themselves.

For instance would they:

(a) Retain the pound
(b) Use the Euro
(c) Revert to the 'groat' or whatever.

We shall see!

 

[Manfred Belheim]

No, the phrasing doesn't matter; what matters is the substance. Respecting the wishes of the electorate, allowing Farage and friends to discredit their dangerous ideology--it does not matter in the least what some American calls it, it's the same exact thing with the same exact results regardless of the terms I use to describe it. It might matter what Cameron calls it, but you're the only one who cares what I call it. And you care far more about what I call it than you do about the actual effects of the potential failure of Brexit, for some odd reason.

I am curious as to why so many people see Britain wanting to leave the EU as symptomatic of right-wing, xenophobic, hateful bigotry. And yet somehow Scotland wanting to leave the UK, for essentially exactly the same reasons, is always talked about as if it's some forward-thinking, left-wing, progressive wonderfulness. It's almost as if... gasp... everyone hates England or something. Such that wishing to be free of England is automatically a good thing, whereas England* wanting to be free of any other influence is automatically a bad thing because, obviously, England left to its own devices will be a disgusting tyranny.

(*and yes I know this is Britain, not England, but it's how everyone's viewing it isn't it)

 

[Manfred Belheim]

and to exercise that democratic process you really need to let Scotland and NI stay in the EU that what self determination is they have made their wishes known.

Where do you draw the line though? Do you let London remain in the EU too? Or Bristol? Or your neighbour's house because they voted to remain? It was a national referendum, taken as a nation, as a whole. It wasn't a "chicken or beef" vote where everyone gets the meal they want.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Its about as balanced as the reason why many old people voted leave: "GET THEM IMMIGRANTS OUT"

I agree that it is indeed about as balanced as your representation of old people yes.

Come on get over yourself. You lost the value in some of your shares, boo hoo. The irony of you criticising others of voting in their self interest when all you care about is the value of YOUR shares and YOUR job.

Also, FORTY PERCENT of the over 55s voted to remain, while something like 25% of the 18 to 25s voted to leave. It's ironic how you (and so many others) are more than willing to take the majority vote as representative of the whole when discussing the age demographics.

So basically stop being so narcissistic and simplistic in your thinking. Stop inventing caricatures to hate.

 

[really]

I rather think the EU Commission civil servants have done their homework there.

That is a bit optimistic - surely they won't necessarily be thinking of what is relevant or best for Britain but what is relevant or best for the EU.

As a random example this morning I was learning about a new document sharing platform being rolled out in my company got me thinking. The servers are in the UK as far as I know.

Will the EU be pressing the UK to deal with the data protection implications of leaving?
The EU's position is quite straightforward - any personal data transferred or held outside the EU must be appropriately protected. Various treaties have recognised other countries data protection standards to enable easy sharing of information. Where in the UK's priorities does this lie? Is there even a position on it? Where does it leave me and a data owner within the EU with information being held outside the EU? One relatively straightforward topic amongst potentially thousands which the UK will have to take a position on and then negotiate on and that I will have to consider. It is going to be a headache.

 

[sherbz]

I agree that it is indeed about as balanced as your representation of old people yes.

Come on get over yourself. You lost the value in some of your shares, boo hoo. The irony of you criticising others of voting in their self interest when all you care about is the value of YOUR shares and YOUR job.

Also, FORTY PERCENT of the over 55s voted to remain, while something like 25% of the 18 to 25s voted to leave. It's ironic how you (and so many others) are more than willing to take the majority vote as representative of the whole when discussing the age demographics.

So basically stop being so narcissistic and simplistic in your thinking. Stop inventing caricatures to hate.

I am quite happy blaming old people thank you very much, it makes me feel better.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well as long as you admit you're being childish, by all means continue

Moderator Action: If you think another poster is trolling, point it out via the Report Post button, not in the thread.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[sherbz]

Tell me.

If the UK had voted 'Remain' would you have been filling
this thread with profuse thanks for their judgement.

No, im angry and upset, thats why im posting on here. And i think it was a massive error in judgment. I also resent the way that the older generation are completely thankless for the hand life has dealt them. And are totally dismissive of what my generation have to struggle with. And its worse than that, because i will probably have to pay for their decision as well. It is just the icing on the cake of what i perceive to be a really raw deal.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

No, im angry and upset, thats why im posting on here. And i think it was a massive error in judgment. I also resent the way that the older generation are completely thankless for the hand life has dealt them. And are totally dismissive of what my generation have to struggle with. And its worse than that, because i will probably have to pay for their decision as well. It is just the icing on the cake of what i perceive to be a really raw deal.

"Old people" now redifined to mean 60% of the over 55s + 25% of the under 25s (+ roughtly half of all other age groups). Oh and...

"Completely thankless for the hand life has dealt them" now redefined to mean any and all reasons anyone had for voting to leave.

 

[sherbz]

"Old people" now redifined to mean 60% of the over 55s + 25% of the under 25s (+ roughtly half of all other age groups). Oh and...

"Completely thankless for the hand life has dealt them" now redefined to mean any and all reasons anyone had for voting to leave.

Exactly, i am glad you are coming round to my way of thinking

 

[Manfred Belheim]

We should probably put "old people" in camps. Or at the very least not let them vote until they pass some sort of test. Maybe the test could be something like "do you consent to us murdering your family if you don't vote remain next time?".

 

[Akka]

Nah, we should weed out old people by killing them right when they're born. Best way to eliminate a threat is to cut it down early.

Jokes aside, a vote is a vote, and an old person has the exact same right to have and support opinions as anyone else.
That being said, I can definitely understand the feeling of anger that the younger generations can have toward the post-war one, which benefitted from a rather properous time and delivered a much harsher world (when it comes to employment). It might not be really rational, but it's understandable.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Nah, we should weed out old people by killing them right when they're born. Best way to eliminate a threat is to cut it down early.

Jokes aside, a vote is a vote, and an old person has the exact same right to have and support opinions as anyone else.
That being said, I can definitely understand the feeling of anger that the younger generations can have toward the post-war one, which benefitted from a rather properous time and delivered a much harsher world (when it comes to employment). It might not be really rational, but it's understandable.

It would be understandable if 100% (or 90%, or even 80%) of the olds who grew up in the post war-period (although it's not clear exactly how long that period was) voted to leave, and were the only people who voted to leave. But given that the actually demographic breakdown shows that that is at best a massive oversimplification, and at worst an outright lie, it's not really understandable. Even less so given that it's all based entirely on assuming that you know the motivations of the voters.

I mean it would be just as understandable for older voters to criticise the 18 year old voters for being barely out of school, wet behind the ears simpletons who know nothing about the real world. For example.

 

[Old Hippy]

Where do you draw the line though? Do you let London remain in the EU too? Or Bristol? Or your neighbour's house because they voted to remain? It was a national referendum, taken as a nation, as a whole. It wasn't a "chicken or beef" vote where everyone gets the meal they want.

I think your use of the word Nation tells us that Scotland and NI should and can draw the line at their borders and remain with the EU
or do you think that when a nation has a referenda it should be ignored and not taken seriously