Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Old Hippy]

And they're the only ones who condemn it are they? This is just an awful, manipulative argument.

you ignored the fact that I deliberately listed many leave voters that would condemn racism and I said they are not responsible, so you are left taking offence at my listing racists who attack mosques and synagogues and held banners at leave rallies as the problem going forward

why, on earth are you so offended when people call out racism as a problem

 

[Mise]

Muslim leaders are constantly required to condemn things done in their name. Every time there's some terrorist act committed in the name of Islam and/or by a Muslim, everyone demands that Muslims condemn it, or criticise Muslim leaders for not condemning it. I don't see how this is any different.

And by that I mean, I don't see why pro-Leave people should have to condemn racism, just because it's done in their name. They should, rather, be criticised for encouraging racism, to whatever extent they have done that. I don't think the Leave campaign is responsible for racist attacks, though it's obvious that the campaign has had the effect of increasing racist attacks recently.

 

[Akka]

I think France knows that the UK won't leave the EU entirely, unless it has access to the single market in some respect. It's betting that the UK will choose to control immigration and wallop the banks, which will be massively beneficial for France. Think of it from France's perspective: it loses nothing by having the UK retain access to the single market, but preventing UK banks from operating in Europe. It only gains from that arrangement.

For the UK the deal is awful. We retain access to the single market, but not for banks, which is our main export to the EU. We would lose out massively from that deal.

Well, maybe the UK will realize down the road just how good it had it with the EU and how much it was hypocrital with its constant tantrums ?

This whole debacle has been a neverending and unbelievable amount of whining from the single most favoured nation in the EU complaining about getting a raw deal, and of blames put on the EU which for the most part (immigration from Eastern Europe, "Europe of the bankers") actually were direct consequences of THEIR OWN F-ING DECISIONS (it's the UK which pushed for integrating Eastern Europe countries in 2003, and it's the UK which blocked the Tobin tax).

The worst punition the EU can give to the UK is not even a punition at all : it'd be only to actually treat them fairly and give them what they asked for. After 40 years of being the diva, just being pegged down to the same level of everyone else and made to take responsabilities for their decisions is sure to give them a shock.

 

[EnglishEdward]

And iirc "Brexit" came at a time when supposedly the UK is doing rather well again, in national economy terms.

Thank you for including the "supposedly".

I am one of those who believe that the so called return to growth in the UK is largely an
illusion arising from: (a) extraordinary quantitative easing, (b) ultra-low interest rates,
(c) massive government deficit (d) off book student loan debt, (e) increasing other
personal debt and (f) quoting overall GNP rather than per capita GNP.

And our Chancellor, George Osborne, is very obviously secretly delighted to use the
Referendum vote for Leave as an alibi for getting off the hook he was hanging from.

 

[Verbose]

Whatever gives you the idea that I am complaining?

The concept that by exercising our democratic vote, and not in the way those in power want,
we are 'guilty'; is all rather strange. It is the kind of thing that is reminiscent of medieval times
when a king's judge might instruct the jurors to find the accused guilty or of East Germany in
soviet times or North Korea today when one is required to vote for the communist candidate.

Try "responsible" on for size then.

 

[Verbose]

Thank you for including the "supposedly".

I am one of those who believe that the so called return to growth in the UK is largely an
illusion arising from: (a) extraordinary quantitative easing, (b) ultra-low interest rates,
(c) massive government deficit (d) off book student loan debt, (e) increasing other
personal debt and (f) quoting overall GNP rather than per capita GNP.

And our Chancellor, George Osborne, is very obviously secretly delighted to use the
Referendum vote for Leave as an alibi for getting off the hook he was hanging from.

Yes, the recent UK GDP growth figures seem to have come with a string of caveats.

A big problem is still how the British labour market is structured. The EU imigrants, and the other imigrants, might have shown it up in some ways, but the structure of the British labour market has still been made in Britain, and for a looong time now.

 

[AdrienIer]

Whatever gives you the idea that I am complaining?

The concept that by exercising our democratic vote, and not in the way those in power want,
we are 'guilty'; is all rather strange. It is the kind of thing that is reminiscent of medieval times
when a king's judge might instruct the jurors to find the accused guilty or of East Germany in
soviet times or North Korea today when one is required to vote for the communist candidate.

You said that the markets plummeting was because the markets are too unstable. While that's true, it's not an excuse. The british voters are still responsible for the consequence of their vote

 

[EnglishEdward]

Well, maybe the UK will realize down the road just how good it had it with the EU and how much it was hypocrital with its constant tantrums

This whole debacle has been a neverending and unbelievable amount of whining from the single most favoured nation in the EU complaining about getting a raw deal, and of blames put on the EU which for the most part (immigration from Eastern Europe, "Europe of the bankers") actually were direct consequences of THEIR OWN F-ING DECISIONS (it's the UK which pushed for integrating Eastern Europe countries in 2003, and it's the UK which blocked the Tobin tax).

The worst punition the EU can give to the UK is not even a punition at all : it'd be only to actually treat them fairly and give them what they asked for. After 40 years of being the diva, just being pegged down to the same level of everyone else and made to take responsabilities for their decisions is sure to give them a shock.

The problem is that the UK government was controlled by the financial
capitalists and has been pushing their, not the UK people's, interests.


Regarding immigration from Eastern Europe, that was in part because our lying
prime minister Tony Blair was trying to curry favour with, using Donald Rumfield's
term, the New Europe, in the context of the US/UK invasion and occupation of Iraq.
The decision not to limit such immigrants to the UK then, while the French and
German government limited immigrants by quota then, infuriated the UK working class.

The way I see things is simple. If a UK bank wants to develop in another country,
it merely needs to set up a subsidiary company in that company that maintains account,
pays taxes and otherwise operates according to that other country's banking regulations.
If the remnant EU wishes to apply a Tobin tax, that is OK with me.

 

[Akka]

The problem is that the UK government was controlled by the financial
capitalists and has been pushing their, not the UK people's, interests.

You are the ones electing your government. You're collectively responsible for who you get. If your government sucks, elect someone else.

Instead, you jumped on the bandwagon of blaming the EU.
Not that you're the only people doing this, it's kind of become a habit of the whole political class - blame all their own misdeeds on the EU, then act surprised that everyone think the EU stinks. And our usual mindless anti-EU clowns are certainly reveling and wallowing in it without bothering with trivialities such as reality or facts.
But it's especially egregious in the UK case considering how favoured it has been in the EU with its countless special treatments, and how the main anti-EU arguments stemmed from what they forced upon EU themselves (and which often were directed at sabotaging EU to begin with). Having someone tripping you up in a puddle and then complain about you it ended up splashing the pants you cleaned for him, means there is no surprise you feel pretty angry at him.

 

[EnglishEdward]

You said that the markets plummeting was because the markets are too unstable. While that's true, it's not an excuse. The british voters are still responsible for the consequence of their vote

Perhaps we are arguing due to semantics.

There is a distinction in the English language between "guilt" and "responsibility".

'Guilt' implies criminality.

in general responsibility does not imply criminality.

Yes, we must own the reasonably forseeable outcomes of our decisions.

Consider the position of the jockey in a horse race. If he falls off, is he
responsible for the losses of the gamblers who have bet upon him to win?

We'd only regard him as 'guilty' if it was proven he had taken a bribe
to lose the race or had placed a bet for another jockey for that race.

 

[EnglishEdward]

mindless anti-EU clowns are certainly reveling and wallowing

Yes, I saw Nigel Farage being rude on television at the European Parliament.

The EU may decline to give him a visa to protect himself.

 

[Verbose]

You are the ones electing your government. You're collectively responsible for who you get. If your government sucks, elect someone else.

Yes, well... The question is if there aren't some fundamental problems with how the British parliamentary system operates. It has allowed these still powerful minority governments for rather a long time — and as the referendum has demonstrated, the UK today is a place divided more by class, region and age than seems to have been entirely understood and appreciated.

Frankly, what I take from the situation is that the British seem to be in a downright "continental" mood of revolutionary rhetoric (at least, so far) about it all.

Arguable it is a country that historically has had one or more revolutions too few to sort out some things about itself. Sometimes the gradual reform approach works fine, sometimes it doesn't. And the present situation just might be a delayed add-on effect of the latter.

 

[Akka]

Yes, well... The question is if there aren't some fundamental problems with how the British parliamentary system operates. It has allowed these still powerful minority governments for rather a long time — and as the referendum has demonstrated, the UK today is a place divided more by class, region and age than seems to have been entirely understood and appreciated.

Maybe there is a problem with how the British political system works (though it did work rather well for a long time).
But that's beside the point. Or, rather that highlight the point : it's an internal British problem which is emphatically NOT of the EU responsability. And yet, the people who most complain about EU encroaching on their sovereignty, are the same ones who tend to lay blame on the EU for elements which directly come from said sovereignty.

 

[Verbose]

Maybe there is a problem with how the British political system works (though it did work rather well for a long time).
But that's beside the point. Or, rather that highlight the point : it's an internal British problem which is emphatically NOT of the EU responsability. And yet, the people who most complain about EU encroaching on their sovereignty, are the same ones who tend to lay blame on the EU for elements which directly come from said sovereignty.

Oh I agree, the "Brexit" referendum was always only tangentially about the actual EU. It was about British identity, except explicitly casting it like that was always a bit of blind spot.

 

[Lillefix]

Nooo. Where will my entertainment come from this fall?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-run-for-leadership-of-u-k-conservative-party

 

[Verbose]

Nooo. Where will my entertainment come from this fall?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-run-for-leadership-of-u-k-conservative-party

He'll be back I assume. He'll find a way. Right now the PM-ship would be a suicide mission anyway, and he's not suicidal.

 

[Old Hippy]

Nooo. Where will my entertainment come from this fall?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-run-for-leadership-of-u-k-conservative-party

he gave till the very last
20 mins before nominations closed he spoke for 15 minutes before saying his punch line was, he would not run
I think it was his best speech ever
he will be back

 

[EnglishEdward]

Frankly, what I take from the situation is that the British seem to be in a downright "continental" mood of revolutionary rhetoric (at least, so far) about it all.

Living standards have been slowly declining for the great
majority of people here in the UK for the last thirteen years.

While myself as an older person (aged 60) and other such have in part
been sheltered from that decline so far, we do not expect that sheltering
to continue and can see that the next generations are getting a poor deal.

There has been a growing feeling against the elite; whether corporate fat
cats diverting money due to pension funds into their own pocket or EU officials.

Strangely enough for a Leaver, I think that the EU officials and politicians
are often more competent and less corrupt than our own in the UK.

This is why the decision not to provide for direct elections and accountability
in the constitution or treaty for EU President and senior officials has been a
factor driving the Leave vote in the UK although most Leavers are not knowing of it.

If we had had EU wide elections for a EU President, and a EU Prime Minister and
a EU Chancellor etc, the UK populace might well have been enthused to support the EU.

As it is the appointment of such officials is very indirect, and having our interests
supposedly represented by UK politicians (who we really do not trust at all)
indirectly participating in the process of their appointment does not feel enough.

 

[Verbose]

Living standards have been slowly declining for the great
majority of people here in the UK for the last thirteen years.

While myself as an older person (aged 60) and other such have in part
been sheltered from that decline so far, we do not expect that sheltering
to continue and can see that the next generations are getting a poor deal.

There has been a growing feeling against the elite; whether corporate fat
cats diverting money due to pension funds into their own pocket or EU officials.

Strangely enough for a Leaver, I think that the EU officials and politicians
are often more competent and less corrupt than our own in the UK.

This is why the decision not to provide for direct elections and accountability
in the constitution or treaty for EU President and senior officials has been a
factor driving the Leave vote in the UK although most Leavers are not knowing of it.

I defnitely sympathise. Question is if the UK is changing before our eyes, rather fast, or if it will return to a more usual kind of equilibrium soon?

If we had had EU wide elections for a EU President, and a EU Prime Minister and
a EU Chancellor etc, the UK populace might well have been enthused to support the EU.

As it is the appointment of such officials is very indirect, and having our interests
supposedly represented by UK politicians (who we really do not trust at all)
indirectly participating in the process of their appointment does not feel enough.

Ah, funny thing — this actually makes you sound more Italian than British. It's a not uncommon sentiment with Italians of all hues — our politicians are all corrupt bastards, they do it better in the EU.

But direct elections for actually democratically empowered functions at the EU level? That looks suspisciously federalist, and by more or less common consent in the EU, the (democratically elected) national governments will have none of it so far.

 

[Akka]

This is why the decision not to provide for direct elections and accountability
in the constitution or treaty for EU President and senior officials has been a
factor driving the Leave vote in the UK although most Leavers are not knowing of it.

If we had had EU wide elections for a EU President, and a EU Prime Minister and
a EU Chancellor etc, the UK populace might well have been enthused to support the EU.

I have a hard time reconciling the whole "give us back sovereignty" and scarmongering about "European Superstate" with "we would be much more enthusiast about having a much higher integration into a common political construct".