classical_hero
In whom I trust
They were twice the largest party based on vote, which gave them first go to form government.
Is Britain about to leave the EU?
- Thread starter Mega Tsunami
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They were twice the largest party based on vote, which gave them first go to form government.
Hollande is a genuinely interesting political figure. Even though he's been around since before I was born I still don't fully understand him. For example it appears that when he leaves office next year the income tax will be higher for people with high earnings, and lower for people with low earnings, than when he took office. Among the terrible policies he enacted there are a certain number (admittedly low) of truly progressive laws.
I agree with your point though. Next year I, along with most of the French left, will probably have to vote in the second round of the presidential election for Juppé against Le Pen. Juppé would fit very well in the right wing of the democratic party, some distance to the right of Clinton on many issues.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Well, obviously you haven't lived under actual nazism to even compare both.
I feel you. I'd like to add that all nazi, EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM, breathed air. It's obvious that breathing air is a sure sign YOU'RE A DIRTY NAZI, SHAME ON YOU !
Akka
Moody old mage.
Well, at least in Juppé vs Le Pen I can at least vote for the first one without clenching my teeth - he's probably the only right-wing politician I could imagine throwing a ballot for.
If it's Sarkozy vs Le Pen, then THERE I'll get serious headache.
Lexicus
Deity
Akka said:
Actually I lived in a state governed by Chris Christie for almost eight years.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Too much hyperbole kills both credibility of the speaker and concern in the receiver. It also ends up making actual real problems look like minor details.
Binary propositions kill the ability to distinguish shades.
Neither are actually helpful in fighting populism, because THEY ARE basically populism - simplistic worldview, amalgam and appeal to emotion.
Lexicus
Deity
I'm not interested in fighting populism, where on Earth did you get that idea? I don't think you understand what populism is, either, but that's okay.
Taking things too seriously causes stress. I wasn't really being serious, so don't blow a gasket.
I am dead serious about UKIP's policies reflecting borderline Nazism, though I'm not surprised that you wouldn't agree given the reactionary tendencies you've demonstrated in the past.
Akka said:
Taking things too seriously causes stress. I wasn't really being serious, so don't blow a gasket.
I am dead serious about UKIP's policies reflecting borderline Nazism, though I'm not surprised that you wouldn't agree given the reactionary tendencies you've demonstrated in the past.
Akka
Moody old mage.
All the far-right parties causing problems in Europe are based on populism. Populism is also a problem in itself - it's about dumbing down the political discourse and bring very stupid decisions made for very stupid reasons.
So yeah, fighting populism is a good idea, and if you want to prevent the far right to rise you should be very worried about it.
Well, thanks for proving my point.
Lexicus
Deity
Like I thought, you don't know what populism is. A movement or politician can be said to be populist if it (or she) claims to represent ordinary people as set against elites.
"Fighting" populism is silly, why would I want to "fight" the completely justified anger of ordinary people against elites? People are waking up to the fact that the neoliberal order is designed to screw them over in favor of a very individuals who get richer and richer. The right has managed (almost) to politically monopolize this phenomenon because most of the notionally left parties have become neoliberal parties in the past few decades.
Let's go through them one by one:
Restricting foreigners on football teams
Reminds me a bit of the 1936 Olympics.
Proper dress in theatres
Can't think of any Nazi analogue for this one, aside from the general Nazi emphasis on social conservatism.
Investigating discrimination against white people at the BBC
One of the most important cornerstones of Nazi politics was inculcating a sense of grievance in "Aryans," shifting the narrative so that they would believe they were victims of oppression. This is precisely the same as all this "anti-white racism" nonsense that's being put about by reactionaries today.
Teaching more about the British empire and role of Arabs and Africans in slavery
Systemically distorting the historical record to make your own nation look better. Yeah the Nazis did lots of that.
Making the Circle line a circle again
Can't think of any Nazi analogue.
Referendum on new mosques and banning the burqa
This is exactly the attitude of the Nazis toward synagogues and other displays of Jewish culture and faith.
Inquiry into Muslim-dominated 'no-go' areas
Treating hysterical myth as though it has a basis in fact, much like the Nazis did with all sorts of anti-Semitic blood libel.
Cancelling visas for failure to uphold British values
Again, exactly what the Nazis did with regard to "German values": legal sanctions on those who were seen by the state as not sufficiently "German."
Glamorous railways
Can't think of a Nazi analogue except in a general sense of the wish to return to an imagined better past.
Giving MPs more freedom over their expenses
Can't find a direct analogue. However this seems like it would make it easier to be corrupt and the Nazi state was run on a basis of total corruption.
Restoration of imperial measures and the crown symbol on pint glasses
Reminds me of the attempts to "Germanize" the language and culture to purge it of Roman and Christian influences, which were seen as having degraded the Aryan spirit.
Repainting the trains in traditional colours
Again, no direct analogue, but indirect connection via the wish to return to a glorified past.
Banning windfarms in case they harm fish
No direct analogue.
The same income tax level for rich and poor
To be fair this is an actual area of difference, the Nazis were into progressive taxation AFAIK.
More swearing of allegiance to the Queen
The Nazis were way into autocracy.
Cheaper beer
No direct analogue.
Opt-in sex education
The Nazis were huge on social conservatism, particularly established gender roles (women were supposed to pump out babies).
Banning European studies at universities
The Nazis were quite hostile to fields of study and academics seen as problematic or conducive of questioning the National Socialist ideology.
Letting schools bring back the cane
Again, generally in keeping with the social conservatism of the Nazis and their desire to bring back a glorified past.
Abolishing statutory maternity pay
No good Nazi analogue. The Nazis wanted to encourage motherhood to the point of handing out medals.
No more 'equality' laws
Exactly like the Nazis, except when the Nazis took power there were no equality or anti-discrimination laws to abolish.
"Fighting" populism is silly, why would I want to "fight" the completely justified anger of ordinary people against elites? People are waking up to the fact that the neoliberal order is designed to screw them over in favor of a very individuals who get richer and richer. The right has managed (almost) to politically monopolize this phenomenon because most of the notionally left parties have become neoliberal parties in the past few decades.
Akka said:
Let's go through them one by one:
Restricting foreigners on football teams
Reminds me a bit of the 1936 Olympics.
Proper dress in theatres
Can't think of any Nazi analogue for this one, aside from the general Nazi emphasis on social conservatism.
Investigating discrimination against white people at the BBC
One of the most important cornerstones of Nazi politics was inculcating a sense of grievance in "Aryans," shifting the narrative so that they would believe they were victims of oppression. This is precisely the same as all this "anti-white racism" nonsense that's being put about by reactionaries today.
Teaching more about the British empire and role of Arabs and Africans in slavery
Systemically distorting the historical record to make your own nation look better. Yeah the Nazis did lots of that.
Making the Circle line a circle again
Can't think of any Nazi analogue.
Referendum on new mosques and banning the burqa
This is exactly the attitude of the Nazis toward synagogues and other displays of Jewish culture and faith.
Inquiry into Muslim-dominated 'no-go' areas
Treating hysterical myth as though it has a basis in fact, much like the Nazis did with all sorts of anti-Semitic blood libel.
Cancelling visas for failure to uphold British values
Again, exactly what the Nazis did with regard to "German values": legal sanctions on those who were seen by the state as not sufficiently "German."
Glamorous railways
Can't think of a Nazi analogue except in a general sense of the wish to return to an imagined better past.
Giving MPs more freedom over their expenses
Can't find a direct analogue. However this seems like it would make it easier to be corrupt and the Nazi state was run on a basis of total corruption.
Restoration of imperial measures and the crown symbol on pint glasses
Reminds me of the attempts to "Germanize" the language and culture to purge it of Roman and Christian influences, which were seen as having degraded the Aryan spirit.
Repainting the trains in traditional colours
Again, no direct analogue, but indirect connection via the wish to return to a glorified past.
Banning windfarms in case they harm fish
No direct analogue.
The same income tax level for rich and poor
To be fair this is an actual area of difference, the Nazis were into progressive taxation AFAIK.
More swearing of allegiance to the Queen
The Nazis were way into autocracy.
Cheaper beer
No direct analogue.
Opt-in sex education
The Nazis were huge on social conservatism, particularly established gender roles (women were supposed to pump out babies).
Banning European studies at universities
The Nazis were quite hostile to fields of study and academics seen as problematic or conducive of questioning the National Socialist ideology.
Letting schools bring back the cane
Again, generally in keeping with the social conservatism of the Nazis and their desire to bring back a glorified past.
Abolishing statutory maternity pay
No good Nazi analogue. The Nazis wanted to encourage motherhood to the point of handing out medals.
No more 'equality' laws
Exactly like the Nazis, except when the Nazis took power there were no equality or anti-discrimination laws to abolish.
Akka
Moody old mage.
I stand by my "nazi breathed air" parody. Which is barely a parody at this point.
Fascists were kicked off the streets in the UK in the 1930s and in the 1990s, the UK has a long history of anti-fascism
That is a good point, but people are also actively fighting against this right-ward shift in ideology, much more so than they have in the past afaik. However, even in the 1950s, East German political prisoners sang the Internationale to show that the East German government wasn't socialist at all, and strikes were suppressed by the Attlee government in the UK in the 1940s, even though the Labour Party was purportedly made to help the workers seize the means of production; Opportunists have always tried to appropriate left-wing imagery and called themselves leftists.
You and most of the French left should be out on the streets rioting
Nazi ideologies called National ___: National Socialism, National Bolshevism, National Anarchism
Non-Nazi ideologies called National ___:
In fairness, though he is pretty terrible, Chris Christie isn't literally Adolf Hitler
And that, Mr and Mrs Gove, is how you drop an 'accidental' truthbomb.
It's a small consolation but, as horrible as this whole mess is, it has at least given us the glorious spectacle of Johnson and Gove getting called out as reprehensible lunatics by their own party.
Lexicus
Deity
Yeah I mean, noting all the commonalities between far right racist political parties is just like saying they both breath air! It's exactly the same!
What? No, the proper comparison is between him and some incompetent, completely corrupt Nazi subaltern, like the fattest and most incompetent Gauleiter you can think of.
west india man said:
What? No, the proper comparison is between him and some incompetent, completely corrupt Nazi subaltern, like the fattest and most incompetent Gauleiter you can think of.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Yeah I mean asking for football clubs to have less foreigners is just like gazing people in concentration camps ! It's exactly the same !
Lexicus
Deity
The comparison I actually drew was with the 1936 Olympics. I suppose an even better comparison would be South African sports teams forbidding the participation of non-whites. Of course, we know who the National Party supported in World War II (hint: it was the Nazis).
And, for the record I do think that wanting less foreigners on football clubs springs from exactly the same impulse that puts people in concentration camps.
And, for the record I do think that wanting less foreigners on football clubs springs from exactly the same impulse that puts people in concentration camps.
There are two general reasons for being angry at our current government (or be even more extreme and riot). One is if you think that it's so terrible that it's worth your anger and your violence. But Valls's government is not worse than the Sarkozy/Fillon government. So it makes little sense to get angry now based on competence and policy alone. If there was to be a riot there should have been one 5-7 years ago.
The other is that Hollande "betrayed" the left. That is half true. He broke several campaign promises, but only wishful thinking could have made you believe them in the first place. Hollande was never particularly leftist, and I never had any illusion about where he would lead the country. He went a bit farther right than I had anticipated, but not much. Overall I'm only slightly disappointed (compared to what I expected), and see no reason to riot against him. Just like I won't riot in the next 6 years when Juppé destroys every worker protection law.
The point of voting for the lesser evil is not to pretend like the lesser evil is actually good. It's to hope that the lesser evil will let some good happen, more than the other candidate, and that the society stays afloat until the next election in the hope that someone actually good appears by then.
Akka
Moody old mage.
Yeah, well, binary vision and all that.
sophie
Break My Heart
It's only tangentially related, and I intend nothing ulterior in bringing this up, but I would love to hear what you think about nativist restrictions in various esport games such as League of Legends (no more than 2 out-of-region players allowed per team of 5) and Starcraft (iirc players forbidden from participating in tournaments outside their native region[?]), in both cases done explicitly to prevent Koreans from unequivocally dominating the scene, and to a lesser extent to prevent Korea from becoming a farm system for wealthier regions like China and North America.
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