Is Britain about to leave the EU?

Status
Not open for further replies.
But if they do vote against article 50, Mrs May would have to call a GE. And if she wins article 50 she will call a GE anyway.

The whole point of the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act is so that the PM can't just call a GE any time they like. There needs to be a no-confidence vote (plus other stuff) or two-thirds of the sitting MPs agree that there should be a GE for it to happen.

Oh, yes, you did. The whole Brexit problem would have gone away if people like Junckers had given even a little instead of trying to stonewall.

Yeah, right. UKIP and Tory Eurosceptics would have been so happy to ignore the whole affair if only the EU had been more accommodating. Pull the other one.
 
Juncker did give the UK a little. The problem is that as ever the UK wants more than a little. As is made clear by their current behavior.

Yes, Juncker and the others gave the UK government a little. They gave the UK people nothing.

There is a structural problem in that the EU bodies deal wth the member state governments.
Now the member state governments primary concern is for their own position and they will
agree things with the central EU bodies provided of course that the EU bodies do not sidestep
them by dealing with the general populace. This means that there is no perceived relationship
between the EU Commission, EU Council, Council of Ministers, EU Presidents etc and the peoples.

Global corporates have access via lobbying pathways, but John public knows he does not.

Yes, there is the European Parliament but that is in itself not quite not enough.

The people correctly feel that they are shut out of consultation and decision making; and suspect
that national governments and corporate lobbyists are colluding with the EU to stitch them up although
they are not sure how. Examples being of course UK steel industry, Greek debt crisis, banking etc.

The French, Irish and Netherlands had beforehand referendums on the EU constitution that were lost.

This rang alarm bells, but got the wrong response. What was needed was a general rethink of the
relationships between EU national government and the EU government and the peoples. It did not
happen as the Lisbon Treaty was deliberately structured to create the same outcome as the Constitution.

This was when flexibility and imagination were needed to find the best way forward for all.

By ignoring the referendum outcomes, the EU enthusiasts demonstrated their distaste for democracy.

If asked beforehand, the UK voters would have voted against the EU constitution and probably
by a much greater margin, so John Major and Tony Blair simply decided not to hold referendums.

By pressing ahead with treaties they knew the voters did not want,
two UK governments demonstrated their distaste for democracy.

That was the fatal mistake. Engagement with the various publics and perhaps even a more US style
constitution with a more substantial direct relationship between the voters involving electing european
house and senate and Presidents and commissioners might have won public suport even in the UK.

When presented with a belated opportunity to ratify the two treaties in the 23 June 2016 referendum,
the UK people were presented with a very hard choice:

(a) Remain (which means go forward with the EU project)
or
(b) Leave (which means abandoning the EU project).

Neither of the two middle options were there (c) the choice of remaining with the EEC or European
Community was not there because the EU had decided to remove them to bounce member states
(there is no alternative into moving forwards) and (d) the David Cameron deal was suspect because
it was to be a separate parallel agreement between member states and it was not expressed as a
change to the EU treaties and EU law and the European Court of Justice might rule it irrelevant.

Belated attempts to find another compromise (e) leaving the EU but remaining in the EEA have
fallen, largely because the UK won't swallow EU demands for an unlimited right to mass migration.

And right now Tim Farron's (leader of UK liberal democrats) dishonest claim that the vote to Leave
the EU was not a vote to leave the Single Market, demonstrates his distaste for democracy.

While up north, they are trying to fool the Scots with an independent Scotland within the EU.
 
Last edited:
By ignoring the referendum outcomes the EU enthusiasts demonstrated their distaste for democracy.

The (advisory) referendum decision and any consequent changes should be passed by a majority of MPs
before being enacted.
Of course, Brit democracy also requires involvement of unelected bishops, wizards and druids in the HoL. ;)
 
Calling it "advisory" is rather dishonest; it is not like the people there voted so as to give an advise.

MPs voting on the referendum is also kind of a charade, given Ukip was 100% for leaving, they got 10% of the vote and only have 1/600 of the mps in the house of parliament.
 
Calling it "advisory" is rather dishonest; it is not like the people there voted so as to give an advise.

MPs voting is also kind of a charade, given Ukip was 100% for leaving, they got 10% of the vote and only have 1/600 of the mps in the house of parliament.
Yet, that is how the British political system works and has worked for a very long time. It's a bit strange to champion British self-government while objecting to all the particulars of its exercise.
 
Yet, that is how the British political system works and has worked for a very long time. It's a bit strange to champion British self-government while objecting to all the particulars of its exercise.

Sure. It is just that this is messed up from both ways. It doesn't look like many there actually react due to democratic sentiment (either for leave or stay).
 
Calling it "advisory" is rather dishonest; it is not like the people there voted so as to give an advise.

MPs voting on the referendum is also kind of a charade, given Ukip was 100% for leaving, they got 10% of the vote and only have 1/600 of the mps in the house of parliament.

The referendum was "advisory". Misleading, yes, but the fact is that it was advisory, not binding.
As for the charade of Brit "democracy", look at who gets into the HoL. :)
 
The whole point of the Fixed-Term Parliaments Act is so that the PM can't just call a GE any time they like. There needs to be a no-confidence vote (plus other stuff) or two-thirds of the sitting MPs agree that there should be a GE for it to happen.



Yeah, right. UKIP and Tory Eurosceptics would have been so happy to ignore the whole affair if only the EU had been more accommodating. Pull the other one.

You seem to have difficulty reading simple English. I said the Brexit vote would have gone differently if EU officials like Junckers had actually a
 
De facto there aren't any merely "advisory" public polls numbering tens of millions of votes. Nor should there be.

Whether there should or should not be an advisory referendum is a separate issue. :)
The fact is that on 3 November 2016, the High Court ruled:
"...a referendum on any topic can only be advisory for the lawmakers in Parliament".
 
Oh, yes, you did. The whole Brexit problem would have gone away if people like Junckers had given even a little instead of trying to stonewall. The reality is any political arrangement in a democracy must fit with the will of the people or the people will lash out. The EU made itself to inflexible to accommodate the will of the people so they voted for Brexit. Stop trying to pretend the inflexible EU doesn't carry part of the blame (most of the blame if we are honest).

The hilarious part is the reforms the UK pushed for and which people like Junckers told them were impossible probably will end up happening. As usual with the EU they are a day late and a dollar short.
Yes, well, OBVIOUSLY the EU should effectively have started a process of scrapping its common market in order to accommodate British demands of being part of it while undermining it for being allowed in to ignore the principles underpinning it.

You might need to face up to the fact that this isn't about the UK. The UK is magnitudes less important than defense of the EU common market.

The cognitive dissonance in your post is only outdone by the magnitude of your curious sense of entitlement.
 
You seem to have difficulty reading simple English. I said the Brexit vote would have gone differently if EU officials like Junckers had actually a

You said 'the whole Brexit problem'. Perhaps you should have been more precise if you only meant the referendum.
 
You seem to have difficulty reading simple English. I said the Brexit vote would have gone differently if EU officials like Junckers had actually a

It is quite curious to blame this on Juncker. For all the talk about the will of the people you seem to be neglecting that if you had asked EU citizens whether to give special treatment to the UK again, about 87% would have said: Hell, no!
 
It is quite curious to blame this on Juncker. For all the talk about the will of the people you seem to be neglecting that if you had asked EU citizens whether to give special treatment to the UK again, about 87% would have said: Hell, no!
You must understand, when we Britons talk about the democratic rights of the public, we are't including foreigners in that.
 
I'm not really following what Oerdin's saying, but if british people don't want to be in EU (unless they'd get special privileges (for whatever reason)), voting to not be part of it seems totally reasonable
 
You must understand, when we Britons talk about the democratic rights of the public, we are't including foreigners in that.

Speak for yourself.

My previous post today referred to democratic rights of the public, referendum outcomes, being disregarded in France, Ireland and the Netherlands.
 
I'm not really following what Oerdin's saying, but if british people don't want to be in EU (unless they'd get special privileges (for whatever reason)), voting to not be part of it seems totally reasonable

I am unaware of getting any special privileges from the EU that are not offered to others.
 
I am unaware of getting any special privileges from the EU that are not offered to others.
I'm just trying to say that if most people in a country doesn't want the country to do something, it makes sense that they'd vote against the country doing that thing
 
Yeah,beware the Welshmen burning houses 20 years ago. On the other hand, gentrification isn't really a good thing.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom