Is Britain about to leave the EU?

[Lohrenswald]

They proposed amendments to it. In the early 20th century the Commons forced the Lords to accept a piece of legislation that forbids the Lords from completely blocking legislation (they can propose amendments to which the Commons agree, or refuse it for up to three years, depending on the type of bill), and also prohibited budget bills from originating in the upper house. This was achieved mostly because the King threatened to simply give titles to as many people as necessary to change the vote in the House, as His Majesty sided with the Commons over the budget (at that point, many ‘Commons’ were actually title-less landwoners and many Lords actually were industrialists or merchants, so the old distinctions of internationalist traders v. protectionist landowners didn't apply anymore).

Despite being so numerous the upper house is relatively powerless - the commons can force stuff through.

The Lords (mostly conservative landowners ) were stripped of power to stop laws originally to push through a land tax and Irish home rule, neither of which happened.

I had heard about this thing of disempowering the lord house, but I didn't know the specifics, so thanks

What was it that got amended?

 

[really]

Well, that's the problem of the SNP still clinging to ‘It's Scotland's oil’, when in fact they'd better move away from oil and into wind/tidal power.

A thought just out of my head: we might well end up with an Ireland-Northern Ireland-Scotland mini-free trade area. Well, if the Tories weren't hellbent on screwing the entire archipelago, that is.

Eh thanks for the consideration but I don't think we will be giving up our EU membership to trade with ye. We export a lot to the rest of the EU.

Scotland does have a bit of Dutch disease risk.

I had heard about this thing of disempowering the lord house, but I didn't know the specifics, so thanks

What was it that got amended?

Neither of the amendments proposed by the Lords were accepted.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Neither of the amendments proposed by the Lords were accepted.

interesting

so if lord house proposes amendments, it goes back into common house, and that's the final ruling on it, or?

 

[Takhisis]

Eh thanks for the consideration but I don't think we will be giving up our EU membership to trade with ye. We export a lot to the rest of the EU.

But think of this offer: all the haggis Ireland can eat! (it's better than anything the destrucTories will give you)

Scotland does have a bit of Dutch disease risk.

-->move away into alternative energy sources while it has the time

Neither of the amendments proposed by the Lords were accepted.

To expand on my post above: the Lords can ultimately postpone some types of bill for up to three years. Which is, in effect, a powerful tool, as that usually means ‘this bill won't be discussed again until after the next general election’. The custom (remember that the UK does not have anything resembling a real constitution) is that they should ‘yield’ to the Commons in any case.

 

[really]

But think of this offer: all the haggis Ireland can eat! (it's better than anything the destrucTories will give you).

The EU are offering us protected designation of origin prosecco and camembert...

 

[Takhisis]

It's not a mutually exclusive FTA. Think that the Nordic Council co-exists with the EU.

 

[EnglishEdward]

But think of this offer: all the haggis Ireland can eat!

The EU are offering us protected designation of origin prosecco and camembert...

And to think I omitted freedom from hairy haggis and smelly camembert from my list of the benefits from leaving the EU.

 

[Arakhor]

And to think I omitted freedom from hairy haggis and smelly camembert from my list of the benefits from leaving the EU.

Wait until we get fake Cheddar, Stilton, Melton Mowbray pies or Cornish pastries (amongst many others), because you know that a Government that is so incompetent it can't even tax corporations properly is not going to be properly prosecuting violations of formerly protected foodstuffs.

As regards the Scottish referendum, the SNP seem to have a one-track record when it comes to England and certainly seem to be liars for bringing up another referendum in a matter of years, but May is pursuing a very dangerous game by outright refusing to consider a new one.

 

[EnglishEdward]

Wait until we get fake Cheddar, Stilton, Melton Mowbray pies or Cornish pastries (amongst many others), because you know that a Government that is so incompetent it can't even tax corporations properly is not going to be properly prosecuting violations of formerly protected foodstuffs.

Cheddar is produced all over the world from places nowhere near the village of Cheddar. Sainsburys sells a lot of Canadian Cheddar.
I believe that one of the largest producer and consumer of Cornish like pasties is Mexico and they are in my opinion very welcome to adapt the cuisine.

As regards the Scottish referendum, the SNP seem to have a one-track record when it comes to England and certainly seem to be liars for bringing up another referendum in a matter of years, but May is pursuing a very dangerous game by outright refusing to consider a new one.

Theresa May has not refused a new referendum for Scotland, she has merely said that now is not the right time.

 

[Arakhor]

Theresa May has not refused a new referendum for Scotland, she has merely said that now is not the right time.

We're both old enough not to play silly buggers like that. By rejecting the SNP's request until Brexit has occurred, she has de facto refused to permit a new referendum for at least two years (and maybe a lot longer if by some totally unforeseen circumstance EU negotations drag out for a long time).

 

[Gigaz]

By rejecting Sturgeons request for a referendum, May has all but guaranteed that the next referendum will make Scotland independent. Because then there will be the Brexit economic fallout and the threat that any referendum may be the last chance to leave.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Well, that does sound like a Monty Python sketch. The basic premise of guaranteeing something to somebody in exchange for something of value and then revealing that it belongs to somebody else is a staple of many caper films. And also what is called fraud in criminal law in real life.

Was that a reply to me?!

 

[Takhisis]

Habemus Royal Assent!

And to think I omitted freedom from hairy haggis and smelly camembert from my list of the benefits from leaving the EU.

Actually, the best way to ensure that freedom would be to let the Scots free so that bilateral trade in smelly foods can be diverted away from England.

Wait until we get fake Cheddar, Stilton, Melton Mowbray pies or Cornish pastries (amongst many others), because you know that a Government that is so incompetent it can't even tax corporations properly is not going to be properly prosecuting violations of formerly protected foodstuffs.

You'll get Spanish empanadas disguised as Cornish pasties, smuggled in by Gibraltarians who suddenly cannot trade across their own border.

As regards the Scottish referendum, the SNP seem to have a one-track record when it comes to England and certainly seem to be liars for bringing up another referendum in a matter of years, but May is pursuing a very dangerous game by outright refusing to consider a new one.

The whole premise was that the SNP promised -in 2014- to get Scotland (back) into the EU as soon as possible, or never leave it at all. The Remain camp promised that Scotland would have to stay in the UK to remain an EU member. Such a substantial change as taking the UK out of the EU (which, as we have agreed many times, is more than just symbolic, repealing legislation, changing the validity of passports, international trade, fundamentally screwing over the Irish peace settlement which is already heating up at least to a simmer, etc.) definitely changes everything.

And this broken promise of keeping Scotland in the EU brings us to the promise made to the Lords to of course take their suggestions into account. I think this might be subject to revision.

Of course, the SNP are a single-party issue and I think they should change their manifesto if they want to survive after an eventual exit from the UK.

EDIT: And yes, May appears to be doing everything she can to just try to stare down everybody. Better no deal than a bad deal, better no referendum; frankly, it appears to be better, in her mind, that nobody oppose her in anything.

Was that a reply to me?!

*checks*

To post #5094, yes.

 

[Traitorfish]

As regards the Scottish referendum, the SNP seem to have a one-track record when it comes to England and certainly seem to be liars for bringing up another referendum in a matter of years, but May is pursuing a very dangerous game by outright refusing to consider a new one.

We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – or if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.

So, I mean, that'd be a creative definition of "liars".

Of course, the SNP are a single-party issue and I think they should change their manifesto if they want to survive after an eventual exit from the UK.

That's really not the case. I can understand how it would seem like that from the outside, but the SNP are by now as a well-establish political institution as much as Labour or the Conservatives. The have to be, they've been governing Scotland for a decade now, and whatever you think of that administration, it clearly exists, they clearly have some sort of public policy. The notion that the SNP are a Caledonian Sinn Féin, beloved for different reasons by the party loyalists and the Tory press, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

(Noting, mind you, that the Republic has been governed exclusively by daughter-parties of Sinn Féin since its inception, and is likely to continue as such for the foreseeable future, so even their, the English impression of things didn't quite coincide with the reality.)

 

[Lexicus]

They didn't add "or bolth," but they should have.

 

[Kyriakos]

I agree with what was already said, ie that May's refusal will only make the vote for independent Scotland be more massive.
Regardless of the EU's state, the scottish referendum cannot realistically be left for a couple of years later.

That said... usually such independence momentum gets stopped only by a world war. Itself not entirely out of the question...

 

[JohannaK]

World War I certainly did only encourage the Irish to fight for their independence, and by the end of it much of former Russia, Austria-Hungary, and the Ottoman Empire joined or tried to join the club.

 

[Traitorfish]

That said... usually such independence momentum gets stopped only by a world war. Itself not entirely out of the question...

It's certainly hard to think of another nationalist movement that achieved this mass of popular support and then simply burned out. The Basque Country, maybe, but they had an ethnocidal fascist dictatorship to deal with, and whatever you think of the Tories, they're not quite that bad.

 

[Takhisis]

That's really not the case. I can understand how it would seem like that from the outside, but the SNP are by now as a well-establish political institution as much as Labour or the Conservatives. The have to be, they've been governing Scotland for a decade now, and whatever you think of that administration, it clearly exists, they clearly have some sort of public policy. The notion that the SNP are a Caledonian Sinn Féin, beloved for different reasons by the party loyalists and the Tory press, doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Of course it doesn't. The SNP has an approximately social-democratoid manifesto with slices of Green Party policy excerpts sandwiched here and there between the pages but that's all been hidden behind a few coats of independentist rhetoric. After any independence the party would need to reinvent itself into a party that has side-aims secondary to devolution/independence and develop those into a set of parties.

(Noting, mind you, that the Republic has been governed exclusively by daughter-parties of Sinn Féin since its inception, and is likely to continue as such for the foreseeable future, so even their, the English impression of things didn't quite coincide with the reality.)

So the whole aim of the party as expressed by their official name has been achieved.

btw what political stances did Ireland have before independence, other than for/against home rule, independence and so on? Scotland already has established parties (not that the Conservatives or the shambling remains of Labour will have much clout if they keep like this) besides the SNP.

 

[innonimatu]

By rejecting Sturgeons request for a referendum, May has all but guaranteed that the next referendum will make Scotland independent. Because then there will be the Brexit economic fallout and the threat that any referendum may be the last chance to leave.

Has the sky fallen already? I recall that was promised top happen immediately in the event the leave vote won...