Is Elon Musk a fraud?

[Crezth]

You may not agree with Elon Musk personally, but you've gotta hand it to him, he runs several large businesses with too-big-to-fail type government contracts and has personal economic power far outside of the oversight of any human agency.

 

[Takhisis]

You may not agree with Elon Musk personally, but you've gotta hand it to him, he runs several large businesses with too-big-to-fail type government contracts and has personal economic power far outside of the oversight of any human agency.

1) government is the will of the people
2) government gives money to elon musk
3) clearly people democratically want elon musk to be a millionaire

 

[Kaitzilla]

You may not agree with Elon Musk personally, but you've gotta hand it to him, he runs several large businesses with too-big-to-fail type government contracts and has personal economic power far outside of the oversight of any human agency.

The government is looking into SpaceX at least.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

(Bloomberg) -- The Senate Armed Services Committee is looking into national security issues raised by Elon Musk’s decision not to extend the private Starlink satellite network to aid a Ukrainian attack on Russian warships near the Crimean coast.

Chairman Jack Reed said in a statement that the reports on the use of Starlink exposed “serious national-security liability issues and the committee is engaged on this issue.”

“The committee is aggressively probing this issue from every angle,” he said Thursday.

They will have a hard time chiding him too much on this one.

Musk says he didn't turn on Starlink near Crimea due to US sanctions on Russia

U.S. sanctions on Russia meant that Starlink satellite connection near Crimea could not be turned on for a Ukrainian military operation without permission from the U.S. president, Elon Musk said at the All-In Summit in Los Angeles on Sept. 12.

news.yahoo.com

U.S. sanctions on Russia meant that Starlink satellite connection near Crimea could not be turned on for a Ukrainian military operation without permission from the U.S. president, Elon Musk said at the All-In Summit in Los Angeles on Sept. 12.

"The sanctions include Crimea, and we are not allowed to turn on the connection to a sanctioned country without explicit government approval," the billionaire owner of SpaceX, which operates Starlink satellites, told the audience.

There is also a similar situation with SpaceX being sued for discriminating against refugees.

Feds accuse SpaceX of discrimination against asylum recipients and refugees

A Justice Department complaint says that Elon Musk’s rocket company violated federal law by refusing to hire certain foreign nationals with U.S. work permits.

www.politico.com

The Justice Department has accused Elon Musk’s SpaceX company of violating federal law by refusing to hire foreign nationals who were granted U.S. work permits as asylum recipients or refugees.

In a complaint filed Thursday, DOJ officials claim SpaceX rebuffed applications from asylum recipients and refugees from 2018 through last year.

This one seems crazy since a rocket company has to follow so many national security laws.

Are they required to hire Russian, Chinese, and North Korean refugees?

If I were those countries, I'd pack up every spy I had, give them an asylum cover story, and send them to apply to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, SpaceX, Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Northrop Gruman within 24 hours.

From 2016:

Elon Musk Explains Why SpaceX Only Hires Americans

www.inverse.com

“I think people are a bit confused about this; unfortunately, this is not up to us,” Musk said. “U.S. Government regulations make getting a job in the U.S. hard enough as it, but if but if you’re working on rocket technology, that’s considered an advanced weapons technology, so even a normal work visa isn’t sufficient unless you get a special permission from the Secretary of Defense or the Secretary of State. So I want to be clear, this is not out of some desire of SpaceX to just hire people with green cards.”

 

[Arwon]

We're a bee's dick away from full Protocols posting here now

 

[Lexicus]

If I were those countries, I'd pack up every spy I had, give them an asylum cover story, and send them to apply to Lockheed Martin, Boeing, SpaceX, Raytheon, General Dynamics, and Northrop Gruman within 24 hours.

This is a statement reflecting profound ignorance of the US asylum system, intelligence operations, or both!

 

[TempusFugit]

Elon Musk is a very strange guy. If he has wanted to build up an image of himself as some kind of enigma, he has certainly been very successful at that.

Take the tweet posted above. While being against current European immigration practices is a legitimate opinion, being very concerned about George Soros is often a sign that someone has let their mind become corrupted by conspiracy theories. And claiming that it appears that Soros wants “the destruction of western civilization“ is full looney tunes.

But what are his reasons for posting this? Does he actually believe this himself, or is there some kind of tactical maneuvering behind using this kind of rhetoric?

He has certainly been radicalized by the polarization of American politics, like many of his countrymen. And it isn’t very hard to imagine that a successful industry magnate has become a tool of data algorithms and tribalism, just like any truck driver can be. But with Musk being Musk, I still wonder if there isn’t something else behind this. That he is aligning himself with the kind of people that believes this stuff for strategic reasons like shared interests. But that is perhaps giving him too much credit. Or discredit, as that would be very cynical from my point of view.

As to the topic here, my answer would be that both yes and no are correct. No, because he has been successful at several of his ventures, and in a way that is changing the world. Yes, because all humans are frauds in many ways, and especially so in important matters like business. If he is any more of a fraud than other people it would be fair to compare him with, I do not know.

When Musk is discussed, some people expose that they have a very simple and “dualistic” view of other people. Either you are a good guy, or you are a bad guy. There‘s some in-between, but let’s try to keep it down ok? And there’s certainly some of that in this thread.

To me, Musk is a very loathsome and unlikable person. During the submarine debacle he showed fully to the world how repugnant and petty he was, and he hasn’t become any better since. Lowlife is a suitable description for his personality. At the same time, it also looks like he has done far more good than bad things for the world, though the precise effects he will have upon it remain largely in the air. This does not redeem his personality for me, it is still highly disagreeable, but I am able to see him in a nuanced light. Of particular importance are the Neuralink and SpaceX projects.

Musk is not a good person, but his efforts may do much more good for the world than any of us can hope to. Or not, since trying to predict the future is notoriously difficult.

 

[Gorbles]

Musk is not a good person, but his efforts may do much more good for the world than any of us can hope to.

I think you're papering over the core of what you call a "simple" view of other people. Because one of the fundamental disagreements is whether Musk himself is actually contributing anything.

If I'm a senior engineer responsible for a large amount of technical success, does the CEO automatically own that success?

More theoretically, should they? Doesn't this model enable people to fail upwards simply by the virtue of being in charge of successful people?

 

[TempusFugit]

I think you're papering over the core of what you call a "simple" view of other people. Because one of the fundamental disagreements is whether Musk himself is actually contributing anything.

If I'm a senior engineer responsible for a large amount of technical success, does the CEO automatically own that success?

More theoretically, should they? Doesn't this model enable people to fail upwards simply by the virtue of being in charge of successful people?

That’s certainly a very valid and important question. How much are people like Musk needed to get things like this done? How much do they steal the credit of people below them in rank, due our culture and the way our societies are organized?

In internet discussions there’s often a tendency for people to overvalue the importance of the idea-people vice versa everyone else involved in a project. And in our culture in general, the most visible people with the highest rank, tend to get most or all of the credit. Which seems unfair.

I can certainly imagine that there could be other ways to organize society, and other cultural norms which could both work better and be more fair. But I don’t have any specific ideas about how to do that myself.

In the world as it is today, it does seem fair to me to give CEO’s some of the credit for things like this, because it is my impression that their work does matter. But how much I do not know.

 

[Gorbles]

That’s certainly a very valid and important question. How much are people like Musk needed to get things like this done? How much do they steal the credit of people below them in rank, due our culture and the way our societies are organized?

In internet discussions there’s often a tendency for people to overvalue the importance of the idea-people vice versa everyone else involved in a project. And in our culture in general, the most visible people with the highest rank, tend to get most or all of the credit. Which seems unfair.

I can certainly imagine that there could be other ways to organize society, and other cultural norms which could both work better and be more fair. But I don’t have any specific ideas about how to do that myself.

In the world as it is today, it does seem fair to me to give CEO’s some of the credit for things like this, because it is my impression that their work does matter. But how much I do not know.

To me, there's a difference, in the hypothetical I presented, depending on the context. There's obviously a billion different ways such a scenario would play out, but let's go for "more ideal" vs. "less ideal".

"more ideal" would be the CEO (or CIO, etc) is at least reviewing (the most) senior hires. This way they're making a choice that contributes to the ongoing success.

"less ideal" would be there is no CIO (either literally or effectively), and the CEO does not seem to be making the relevant decisions.

The latter situation describes Twitter, and we have a bunch of correlating evidence from the platform, literally from Musk's own Tweets. SpaceX and Tesla are more the former, but we also have evidence there that Musk is kept away from development (and decisions that affect it). So it could be argued that someone else deserves the credit.

All of this paints a perhaps-atypical picture, but in my opinion it's only atypical because Musk has gone so publicly off of the rails. The setup seems very typical. The c-suite is generally insulated from risk, but also benefits the most from any company's success. Yet at the same time (in any organisation) they're not making overseeing the details - merely the big picture. And that can obviously be important, but it doesn't seem to correlate to being worth so much more than anybody else that brings critical value to the same business.

 

[Lexicus]

All the evidence indicates Musk's companies succeed (to the extent that they succeed, anyway) in spite of him, not because of him.

 

[Farm Boy]

<cough> Subsidies from venture capitalists and the state of California.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

bro was born into wealth

 

[PhroX]

The fact that he, as one of the most public figures in the world, is promoting anti-semetic conspiracies indicates that reagrdless of how significant his influence was at Space X and Tesla, his overall impact in terms of the state of humanity is going to be a negative one.

 

[Gorbles]

<cough> Subsidies from venture capitalists and the state of California.

Don't forget Texas! They're pretty happy for his custom too

 

[Hygro]

I think you're papering over the core of what you call a "simple" view of other people. Because one of the fundamental disagreements is whether Musk himself is actually contributing anything.

If I'm a senior engineer responsible for a large amount of technical success, does the CEO automatically own that success?

More theoretically, should they? Doesn't this model enable people to fail upwards simply by the virtue of being in charge of successful people?

Sometimes and not other times.

 

[Arwon]

He has certainly been radicalized by the polarization of American politics, like many of his countrymen.

South Africans?

 

[r16]

just stop here , right now , if you are not familiar with Fringe , starring Anna Torv and that guy from Dawson's Creek or whatever . Severe Reading Compherension issues are always around my posts and this would be more of the same .

now , in that thing , there is some paralel universe , the borders are wearing thin , two earths can not exist in the same dimension , so we here are to die . Leonard Nimoy's last acting job , too .

many will outright reject it . But Capitalism , essentially the Anglosaxon capitalism is in big trouble . With China as the other earth . And actually , the destruction of the planet is on the table , too . We really can not let 1,5 billion Chinese live on the same level of profligate waste as Americans . And yet , the American way has got nothing to do with saving the world or whatever .

what's really happening is not a fashionable subject around here . But it is happening and basically half of America is seen as a threat to this mighty smart endevour , by Americans again . Trump supporters and so on . And they will have no shame in shooting their fellow Americans because you know , it is in their DNA ... Shooting Commies and all . Musk then is a conspiracy in itself . Apparently a loose cannon , but he is Elon Musk and he would also be Elon Musk if this was Trump's second term , maybe this time looking utterly Democrat . Yes , those keep parroting anti-Musk stuff , you are in it , too . The things media narratives can get people into .

like if tomorrow was the day ı , as an silly example , came out with Fusion , just think of the heroic things you would say about Musk .

 

[Lexicus]

Sometimes and not other times.

Good bosses, the kind who would be elected to do the job in a socialist future, understand that without the employees nothing could get done.

 

[Samson]

Elon Musk under investigation by US Securities and Exchange Commission for $44bn takeover of Twitter

Elon Musk is under investigation by the US Securities and Exchange Commission over his $44bn takeover of social media giant Twitter, it was revealed on Thursday.

The investigation concerns whether Musk broke federal securities laws in 2022 when he bought stock in Twitter, which he later renamed X, as well as statements and SEC filings he made about the deal.

In March 2022, Musk bought a 9.2% stake in Twitter and became the company’s majority shareholder. The purchase was not disclosed in an SEC filing until the next month. Twitter shareholders sued over the late filing shortly after, though their suit was dismissed. Faced with a trial that sought to compel him to complete the deal, Musk purchased Twitter’s remaining stock in a $44bn deal and took over the company in October 2022.

The SEC’s investigation was revealed on Thursday when the US agency sued to compel Musk to testify in their investigation, which he previously agreed to do and then reneged on.

 

[Crezth]

just stop here , right now , if you are not familiar with Fringe , starring Anna Torv and that guy from Dawson's Creek or whatever . Severe Reading Compherension issues are always around my posts and this would be more of the same .

now , in that thing , there is some paralel universe , the borders are wearing thin , two earths can not exist in the same dimension , so we here are to die . Leonard Nimoy's last acting job , too .

many will outright reject it . But Capitalism , essentially the Anglosaxon capitalism is in big trouble . With China as the other earth . And actually , the destruction of the planet is on the table , too . We really can not let 1,5 billion Chinese live on the same level of profligate waste as Americans . And yet , the American way has got nothing to do with saving the world or whatever .

what's really happening is not a fashionable subject around here . But it is happening and basically half of America is seen as a threat to this mighty smart endevour , by Americans again . Trump supporters and so on . And they will have no shame in shooting their fellow Americans because you know , it is in their DNA ... Shooting Commies and all . Musk then is a conspiracy in itself . Apparently a loose cannon , but he is Elon Musk and he would also be Elon Musk if this was Trump's second term , maybe this time looking utterly Democrat . Yes , those keep parroting anti-Musk stuff , you are in it , too . The things media narratives can get people into .

like if tomorrow was the day ı , as an silly example , came out with Fusion , just think of the heroic things you would say about Musk .

great post.