Is it possible to get rid of nationalism?

[Terxpahseyton]

Sorry but I do not care to explore this with you any further. Just too much bad faith going around. I find it conclusive and simple enough, you don't. Will have to leave it at that.

 

[Traitorfish]

"I can't grasp basic analytical categories because I'm too smart."

Called it.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Your smugness becomes nauseating.

 

[Tahuti]

On the plus side, they want to ditch the euro

Would you still want to ditch the Euro if there was a common fiscal authority for the Eurozone? Because I fundamentally agree that the lack of such will ultimately be fatal to the Euro and for a good reason.

However, the Euro arguably insulates us from the effects of capital flight, a major risk for small countries with their own currency, and prevents fiddly exchange rate stuff without risking speculative attacks as with fixed exchange rates.

The only real downside is lack of a common fiscal guarantee at a European level, and while this can be rectified, the Euro won't really last without it.

On the down side, they want to ditch the immigrants

Considering Wilders' vitriolic anti-immigrant rethoric, I would never support the PVV even if I would consider dropping the Euro a good thing.

 

[Traitorfish]

Your smugness becomes nauseating.

That's your body telling you to be more like me.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

I did think about growing a beard.

 

[Traitorfish]

Grow two for good measure. A primary beard on the face, and a reserve-beard under your skin in case of emergencies.

 

[Terxpahseyton]

Sounds itchy. Well they do say beauty requires suffering.

 

[Hygro]

@Kaiserguard my homey, the euro with a common fiscal union or the ability to run massive deficits supported by the ECB would probably make the Euro fine. And yeah ditching the Euro is a small consolation for becoming neo-fascist.

Called it.

But is he wrong in that whatever thing comes out as nationalism that for lack of a better term he calls tribalism and nationalism is actually universal to the human experience and therefore if we apply the logic of why nationalism to separate historical instances we can come up with the same us-vs-them, united by common identity interplay that is effectively going to have the same composition of social interplay, just under different names (i.e. consistently analogous across time, space, culture, etc).

I mean, I think so, but what Terx is asking of you is why that is so. In so far as you're trying to be helpful to him, and not just to yourself or the audience at large, you're offering him the tools to figure that out.

But telling him why that is so, at this point, would be more resourceful. In fact, he could, perhaps analogize the specific argument into figuring out the tools for future examples.

Another way of putting it is, is the root of nationalism a pervasive and meaningful piece of trans-historical human nature that makes nationalism an appropriate word, pseudo-akin to saying Xerox instead of photocopy? Because that's what, I think, Terx has been hoping you would address.

 

[Winner]

That's the strength of having a senate. I don't want a populist zealot to have the ability to hijack the parliamentary system, even if good initiatives sometimes fail because of that.

I don't want a deadlocked or sluggish government unable to effectively govern and address the issues the country faces. There are other democratic tools to ensure a single party doesn't take over all power in the state.

 

[Tahuti]

I don't want a deadlocked or sluggish government unable to effectively govern and address the issues the country faces. There are other democratic tools to ensure a single party doesn't take over all power in the state.

A government doesn't need a senate to govern. It does need a senate to pass laws, but governing doesn't require to pass laws, merely to enforce them. Governments pass too many unnecessary, complicated or unjust laws and taxes already, and lacking a senate, I fear the issue will be exacerbated. Especially if the party in power are a bunch far-left or far-right fanatics.

 

[Traitorfish]

As opposed to centrist fanatics.

 

[Tahuti]

As opposed to centrist fanatics.

Centrist fanatics tend not to be raving mad lunatics, unless we're talking about NasBols.

 

[Yeekim]

I find it conclusive and simple enough

I agree.

When applied equally to the civic pride of an ancient Athenian, the clan-loyalties of a 16th century Mac Dhòmhnaill and the political commitments of a German '48er, "nationalism" simply ceases to be a meaningful category of analysis.

Sure, because it is not a meaningful category of analysis in that particular context, which is kind of the whole point.
While there are certainly differences between civic pride of ancient Athenian and clan loyalties of medieval Scot which may be significant for a different and more detailed analysis, those differences are currently entirely superfluous, for both still represent one particular tendency of communal species called humans: that they tend to form groups. And the stronger the group identity, the greater the antagonism towards other similar groups.

Sure, there are differences between tribalism and nationalism and imperialism, but from that point of view, they are the same thing on another degree.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I don't like the phrasing in your first sentence, since I don't think that anything is "inevitable". If nationalism disappears, it will do so because of human agency - unless it dissapears because humanity disappears itself.

Sorry if my thought process was unclear. The end of nationalism is as near to inevitable as I can imagine not because of any lack of human agency but because of it. And end of nationalism only requires people to stop doing it, and humans tend to use their agency for all sorts of different things. Nationalism becoming outdated is inevitable for, I don't know, the same reason I imagine Dub Step will eventually become outdated.

 

[Hygro]

Sorry if my thought process was unclear. The end of nationalism is as near to inevitable as I can imagine not because of any lack of human agency but because of it. And end of nationalism only requires people to stop doing it, and humans tend to use their agency for all sorts of different things. Nationalism becoming outdated is inevitable for, I don't know, the same reason I imagine Dub Step will eventually become outdated.

wub wub wub wub

 

[Tahuti]

Sorry if my thought process was unclear. The end of nationalism is as near to inevitable as I can imagine not because of any lack of human agency but because of it. And end of nationalism only requires people to stop doing it, and humans tend to use their agency for all sorts of different things. Nationalism becoming outdated is inevitable for, I don't know, the same reason I imagine Dub Step will eventually become outdated.

I think Nationalism will last a lot longer than Dubstep, and even that will last somehow. Any idea - once articulated - will always be known by someone somewhere in the world, in if it doesn't, will always be resurrected by someone somewhere in the world.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think Nationalism will last a lot longer than Dubstep, and even that will last somehow. Any idea - once articulated - will always be known by someone somewhere in the world, in if it doesn't, will always be resurrected by someone somewhere in the world.

That is not the view in 'Merica. Some profound thinkers there believe that you can bury entire notions and replace them by different ones, effectively making the old ones die. Ever met an undocumented immigrant?

A bit like multiculturalism works because it is used as a term with positive connotation.

 

[Tahuti]

That is not the view in 'Merica. Some profound thinkers there believe that you can bury entire notions and replace them by different ones, effectively making the old ones die. Ever met an undocumented immigrant?

The best way to bury old ideas is by allowing them to be superseded, I agree. But they can also be digged up if someone wants to.

A bit like multiculturalism works because it is used as a term with positive connotation.

Multiculturalism has to ceased to have positive connotation in Western Europe long ago. Whoever utters that word in a positive way is considered a PC nut, I guess. That said, I find it a vague and useless term to begin with, since multiculturalism is usually applied to descendents of immigrants, as if people are implying that there are no cultural differences within a nation to begin with.

 

[Traitorfish]

I think Nationalism will last a lot longer than Dubstep, and even that will last somehow. Any idea - once articulated - will always be known by someone somewhere in the world, in if it doesn't, will always be resurrected by someone somewhere in the world.

Sure people will "know" nationalism. But what of it? I know nationalism, I dare say better than most nationalists, but I'm not one myself. Nationalism requires a nation, the collective imagining of a national community, and that isn't something that can simply be declared by the individual.