Is it possible to get rid of nationalism?

[Winner]

One of my trademark simple questions for which there probably isn't any simply answer.

Nationalism is an ideology responsible for more conflict, suffering, misery, and death than any other except perhaps religion (in that regard, the two can be considered forms of the same underlying problem). It continues to plague this planet and drive millions to slaughter, even though it fortunately doesn't do it any longer in the place where it originated, i.e. the continent where I was born.

Clearly, if we are to achieve maturity as intelligent beings, we need to get rid of it. We invented it, we created, we should be able to undo it and throw it into the dustbin of history.

My question is therefore two-fold:

1) Can it be done, or is humanity destined to suffer from this plague until it finally destroys us, one way or another?

2) If you believe it can be eradicated, how would you go about it? What's the medicine? How long before it takes effect?​

Discuss, and vote in a poll

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If anybody is in any doubt that nationalism is a problem, I invite you to watch this documentary series.

 

[classical_hero]

It was also nationalism that helped prevent some of the worst things from happening, since some people believed in their nation and what it stood for and was willing to make sure it's ideals were spread around the world. AUS#1

 

[Hygro]

One of my trademark simple questions for which there probably isn't any simply answer.

Nationalism is an ideology responsible for more conflict, suffering, misery, and death than any other except perhaps religion (in that regard, the two can be considered forms of the same underlying problem). It continues to plague this planet and drive millions to slaughter, even though it fortunately doesn't do it any longer in the place where it originated, i.e. the continent where I was born.

Clearly, if we are to achieve maturity as intelligent beings, we need to get rid of it. We invented it, we created, we should be able to undo it and throw it into the dustbin of history.

Right on, preach it man. Correct me if I'm wrong but you used to be pretty pro-nationalism just a few years ago right?

 

[Formaldehyde]

There isn't anything inherently wrong with a minor amount of nationalism. It is perfectly natural to feel that way about your country:

From a psychological perspective, nationalism (national attachment) is distinct from other types of attachment, for example, attachment to a religion or a romantic partner. The desire for interpersonal attachment, or the need to belong, is one of the most fundamental human motivations. Like any attachment, nationalism can become dysfunctional if excessively applied.[2]

This is quite distinct from what the wiki characterizes as "ultranationalism":

Ultranationalism is a zealous nationalism that expresses extremist support for one's nationalist ideals. It is often characterized by authoritarianism, efforts toward reduction or stoppage of immigration, expulsion and or oppression of non-native populations within the nation or its territories, demagoguery of leadership, emotionalism, fomenting talk of presumed, real, or imagined enemies, predicating the existence of threats to the survival of the native, dominant or otherwise idealized national ethnicity or population group, instigation or extremist reaction to crack-down policies in law enforcement, efforts to limit international trade through tariffs, tight control over businesses and production, militarism, populism and propaganda. Prevalent ultranationalism typically leads to or is the result of conflict within a state, and or between states, and is identified as a condition of pre-war in national politics.[citation needed] In its extremist forms ultranationalism is characterized as a call to war against enemies of the nation/state, secession or, in the case of ethnocentrist ultranationalism, genocide.[53]

Fascism is a form of palingenetic ultranationalism[54] that promotes "class collaboration" (as opposed to class struggle), a totalitarian state, and irredentism or expansionism to unify and allow the growth of a nation. Fascists sometimes promote ethnic or cultural nationalism. Fascism stresses the subservience of the individual to the state, and the need to absolute and unquestioned loyalty to a strong ruler.[55]

This is where the problem lies. It is excessive nationalism which is the cause of so many "dysfunctional" societal problems. USA #1...

 

[Camikaze]

It was also nationalism that helped prevent some of the worst things from happening, since some people believed in their nation and what it stood for and was willing to make sure it's ideals were spread around the world. AUS#1

Would you accept that people would be willing to stand up for whatever ideals you're referring to whether or not those ideals were exhibited by their nation? If so, do you think the nation is really a necessary aspect of the equation?

I'd think that whether or not it's possible to get rid of nationalism has some sort of relationship to its utility. If it doesn't have any, then it'd probably be easier to get rid of.

 

[Hygro]

I mean a little pride in your area motivates you to make it better. Just don't have an ego about it

 

[warpus]

I think you're going to see less and less nationalism as regions become more closely entwined in terms of political and economic treaties - such as the treaties that bind the EU together for example.

You'll see plenty of regional pride though, and I think that's probably something that we'll never quite shake off... and that's probably a good thing - there's nothing wrong about feeling proud of your local community and what it's accomplished.

Nations are probably on their way out - eventually, but that regional pride will never quite disappear. Poles will be proud of Polish butter and Californians will be proud of Hollywood blockbuster movies, but that "I'm Polish so Germans suck" or "I'm Californian so Mexicans suck" mentality will decrease over time, as I feel that it is partially artificially in place due to national borders, which creates the feeling that once you cross this artificial border, you are in a land populated by "other people".

The same feeling occurs when you cross from California to other states for example - but the feeling is not nearly as strong, right? I think that's where we're headed, assuming that countries are on their way out.. Which I think they are, it just might take a couple centuries for the last one to disappear.

 

[Leoreth]

What Forma posted is similar to what I would have said.

First of all, to have this discussion, we need an agreed upon definition of what constitutes nationalism. I remember some discussions here where opinions differed on what is nationalism and what patriotism, and whether there is even any difference between the two.

I think it's fundamental human behavior to look for tribes in all areas of life. In sports, people look for a team to cheer on and suddenly become part of their successes and defeats. Suddenly "they" have won a game even though they did nothing but sit in front of a TV and drink beer. People tend to attribute themselves to groups and judge themselves and others by whether they belong to it or not, even if they didn't do anything to affect whether this group is successful or not. This can take very ridiculous turns such as judging others for selecting the brands that they favor (Apple vs Android come to mind).

Nationalism is basically this concept applied to international politics and history. You'll hear English people say that "they" created the largest empire in the history of the world even though they surely didn't contribute anything except being born in the same country as those who did that centuries before, and so on. The examples write themselves.

It's very stupid if you think about it, but I think with some critical introspection we all have to come to the conclusion that we have done similar stuff in at least some areas of life, even if we think nationalism is dumb. So I guess the only way to get rid of nationalism is to get rid of this sort of tribal behavior altogether, and get people to only take satisfaction from their own accomplishments, instead of that of a semi-imaginary group they didn't contribute anything to anyways? I don't know if that works for the majority of the human population.

 

[Kyriakos]

Is seems very possible to get rid of (EU) nationalism

 

[Camikaze]

So I guess the only way to get rid of nationalism is to get rid of this sort of tribal behavior altogether

Well, is the question about whether it's possible to get rid of this tribal behaviour of which nationalism is the most prominent example (arguably?), or about whether it's possible to shift to instead expressing tribal behaviour in terms other than the nation?

 

[Leoreth]

Is seems very possible to get rid of (EU) nationalism

There is no European nation. But you're one of the people from whom I totally expected a non-constructive contribution to this thread.

Well, is the question about whether it's possible to get rid of this tribal behaviour of which nationalism is the most prominent example (arguably?), or about whether it's possible to shift to instead expressing tribal behaviour in terms other than the nation?

That's a good point. I've already heard the argument that European football served as an outlet for competition between previous enemies in a peaceful way after WW2.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Thanks, i guess a positive is potentially seen as the negative of a negative.

And some do see the EU as a nation. Just observe them in places like that 'CFC' forum or what was its name...

 

[Winner]

Right on, preach it man. Correct me if I'm wrong but you used to be pretty pro-nationalism just a few years ago right?

Not a Czech nationalist, for sure. I may have (inter/trans)nationalist tendencies concerning Europe as a whole.

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However, it is clear to me now that so long as the idea of the nation state exists, so long as the belief that nations are real and that they have "rights" and "interests" is considered to be true, we are on a slippery slope towards self-annihilation as a species. The idea of the nation state might have been tolerable while the most destructive personal weapon was a single-shot musket. It had clearly become extremely dangerous when we invented machine guns and poison gas, and it has crossed into the insane territory when we introduced nuclear and biological weapons.

Disregarding war as the end product of nationalism, there are other areas where nationalism contributes to the creeping suicide of the human race.

Environment - our collective "national self-interest" prevents us from effectively managing the environment and tackling climate change.

Economy - nation-states obsessed with their relative power measured by GDP-growth drive this world into a financial and economic meltdown.

Population - the belief that there needs to be more of "us" as opposed to "them" contributes to the crazy levels of population growth which make all other global problems worse.

Science - how much more could be achieved, if "nations" co-operated effectively, instead of trying to be the "first to XYZ". Countries even obsess about how many of their citizens received the Nobel Prize, totally ignoring the fact that the Prize is given to individuals or individual teams of people, not nations.

etc. etc. etc.

Hitchens said that religion poisons everything. I agree with him and add nationalism as the other main poison.

 

[Formaldehyde]

How do you reconcile this attitude and your opinion that Palestinians should be moved elsewhere than where they are now?

What unity is the slogan "diverse in unity" referring?

 

[Leoreth]

How do you reconcile this attitude and your opinion that Palestinians should be moved elsewhere than where they are now?

Moderator Action: In the best interests of this thread, please discuss this elsewhere.

 

[Phrossack]

Nationalism is the measles of mankind. It's narcissism, xenophobia, an us vs. them mentality, and arrogance all rolled into one. Nationalists think their "nation" is special and superior simply because they were born there, and are fascinated in it because it related to themselves.

As Leoreth has said, this tribal "us vs. them" mentality is human nature. I'm not sure it'll ever go away, but as Camikaze has noted, it can be shifted. Probably only sustained relations with an alien race will unite humanity and give it an "other" to unite against. People may be white or black, Muslim or Hindu, Turkish or Greek, but at least they won't be aliens, the thinking will go.

 

[Kyriakos]

^ No man, Persian or Greek, no man threatens a messenger.

 

[bhsup]

I don't understand how you can be pro-EU and not think that is nationalism. Your hope for the EU seems to be to turn it into a United States of Europe, so all you're really wanting Europeans to do is transfer their nationalism from their current state to the soon to replace them EU State.

That aside, though, your poll is incomplete. There is no option for "Yes, but only after the return of Christ and the establishment of his Kingdom on Earth."

 

[Leoreth]

Is every state a nation state in your opinion? Can states only exist because of nationalism?

That's a very nationalist point of view (when all you have is a hammer ...).

 

[cybrxkhan]

It will go away in time, or perhaps not go away but cease to become important, once the concept of the nation-state peters out or changes to something different, as society will be radically different [x] years from now.

I don't like nationalism myself too much. Even its moderate form in civic nationalism I'm pretty suspicious of, admittedly. But that's just my opinion.