Is the God of the Torah good?

[MagisterCultuum]

As a Jew, civ2 is extremely reluctant to write a name of God on an impermanent medium like an internet forum. Even if the restriction technically only applies to the most holy name of God, the tetragrammaton, devout Jews prefer to omit letters from other words and titles of God regardless of the language. That is why he writes G-d instead of God, and Ad-noy instead of Adonai (which is the most common transliteration but probably not the one he is abbreviating). Adonai means Lord, and is what Jews are supposed to say when they come across the tetragrammaton when reading aloud. In other contexts they typically say HaShem, meaning "the name

Edit: I should have refreshed the page before wasting time posting.

 

[civ2]

Edit: I should have refreshed the page before wasting time posting.

Thanks anyways.
Yeah, this problem happens to me too.
Like, while I write a page-long post, some 5 more pile up before it.

 

[warpus]

As a Jew, civ2 is extremely reluctant to write a name of God on an impermanent medium like an internet forum. Even if the restriction technically only applies to the most holy name of God, the tetragrammaton, devout Jews prefer to omit letters from other words and titles of God regardless of the language. That is why he writes G-d instead of God, and Ad-noy instead of Adonai (which is the most common transliteration but probably not the one he is abbreviating). Adonai means Lord, and is what Jews are supposed to say when they come across the tetragrammaton when reading aloud. In other contexts they typically say HaShem, meaning "the name

Edit: I should have refreshed the page before wasting time posting.

No waste, what you wrote was very insightful and easy to read

 

[civ2]

Ohhh, guys...
I still can't and probably won't digest the notion that people here hate being linked-to instead of quote-fed...
But I so think it's a wrong attitude...
Whatever...

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

This is mass murder by an omnipotent being we're talking about.

Dont you think this is just too silly way to look at it. We humans are everyday massmurdering so much vegetables and animals. I suppose that just another prove that we are made in Gods image.
Edit: in fact just the idea of death and its actual creation is by that logic proof of collosal perversion..

I meant something nobody in the world understood until the entire human species was enlightened. This is going back to your point that we can't understand God now, but at some point the whole species will have "our eyes opened" (not quoting you, trying to put it into my own words) and everything will make sense.

Just looking for some historical justification that such a thing can happen.

Thats not how it usualy works. Generaly its the illumined individual(scientist, artist, spiritual figure) from which the light spreads to the rest. Thats why the communism failed. It has neglected this fact and proclaimed the ignorant masses as a leader.
I believe thats true also for spiritual development. There will not probably be a situation where all of humans will be illumined. See, I believe in reincarnation, so there is a need for natural progression of the soul from lower to higher forms of existence....

 

[civ2]

Gorakshanat
I so much love to sprinkle blood of dead tomatoes onto my pasta!
As of humanity's enlightenment - Jews do believe and await such a time, very soon actually, called the Ultimate Redemption (or Moshiach time).
This will be the time when everyone will actually BE enlightened to SEE G-d with our flesh eyes - a thing impossible nowadays, but not in the future.
WHAT.
WHY.
WHEN.
IN-DEPTH: List of articles for a non-lazy reader.

 

[Defiant47]

Is there a lot of archeological evidence of events and fulfilled prophecy from the Illiad & the Odyssey?
The Bible has both...

We have dinosaur bones, therefore the Messiah was a raptor? Or do I need to put that in a book?

Defiant
To begin with (and I did point it out) such stories might be TOLD by/to millions of people - but they themselves don't INCLUDE those same millions as ACTIVE participants.
The Sinai episode clearly does.
Compare it to making a constitution:
Imagine that today I'll start claiming it was never written and is fake.
Your counter-claim:
But there are NAMES that signed under it - and also my great...grandparents were present there!

Both claims are devoid of meaning. I can't say that it is fake, and you can't say that it is true.

To make any claim on this matter, whether it be "this is fake" or "this is true", we would need divine knowledge that only God possesses. I, personally, do not claim to be God.

The names of participants is irrelevant. Does truth then lie within a majority of belief? In that case, you should know that 33% of the world are Christian, more than any other religion. Is Christianity then the one true faith?

I even have some story of how the future president was scratching his nose!..
So - whose claim is stronger: mine (based on nothing but personal disbelief) or yours (based on story passed through generations)?

Perhaps the claim is stronger if it has been passed through generations, but it is still weak. Simply because you present a weaker argument does not validate yours.

And not to mention, that the constitution itself is still present and quite active.
Now - all this applies to Torah to the same degree if not more - 3 million people is quite a number of witnesses.

Claimed witnesses.

You were not there, and do not know for sure that there were 3 million people. I was not there, and do not know for sure that there weren't 3 million people.

Regardless, to make any statement on the divine, one requires divine knowledge. If you do not have divine (superhuman) knowledge and understanding, you cannot claim anything that pertains to the divine, including deciding what are the words and laws of God and what aren't. To make such a claim would be presumptuous at best.

 

[warpus]

Ohhh, guys...
I still can't and probably won't digest the notion that people here hate being linked-to instead of quote-fed...
But I so think it's a wrong attitude...
Whatever...

It would be AWESOME if you started using the quote function like the rest of us do.

I would totally start referring to you as ci_2 if you started doing that

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Gorakshanat
I so much love to sprinkle blood of dead tomatoes onto my pasta!
As of humanity's enlightenment - Jews do believe and await such a time, very soon actually, called the Ultimate Redemption (or Moshiach time).
This will be the time when everyone will actually BE enlightened to SEE G-d with our flesh eyes - a thing impossible nowadays, but not in the future.

I will have time to read the links later on...
I believe one can see God with human eyes or can see God in everything or can see God as everything. But I also believe in evolution. What we call an evolution of species is just an evolution of Spirit who is integral part of the Creation from its start in the form of Matter, Life, Mind and the creation continues... By nature this process is relatively slow and steady so it would seem it should continue that way as it obviously has a good reason be that way. I strongly believe that the time of salvation, liberation, illumination and God-realisation is meant to come to everybody but not to a mass of people as we have obviously different standards. .

 

[civ2]

warpus
FUNNY.
Joke accepted, digested and internalized.
The result will be seen in the next millennium.

Defiant
Why do you believe constitution isn't a fake?
Cause you have people who are descendants of those that signed it.
For all those centuries it was constantly seen by newer and newer generations, while in the presence of the older ones.
Thus preventing FAKING of it.
Same goes for Torah - each generation's Jews en masse studied it and read the entire book annually.
Is there any better constant proof of something?
Also, about Divine knowledge.
You forget that the original generation actually EXPERIENCED G-d, and could tell this to their children.
Actually, they were commanded to do so!
And the story of Exodus is also repeated annually at Passover, with the entire family.
So each generation had continuously being reminded of the past events many times.
I'd say, your problem is typical - you don't WANT to believe what I say, so you just "don't hear me right"...
Whatever...

 

[Ajidica]

civ2, since you appear to have a good understanding of the Torah and the Messiah from a traditional Jewish viewpoint, how many of the qualities of the Messiah does Jesus meet?
Or, if you don't know enough about Jesus to answer that, what are the key qualities for the Messiah

 

[civ2]

Ajidica
Well, WIKI is enough already.

"And I will restore your judges as at first and your counsellors as in the beginning; afterwards you shall be called City of Righteousness, Faithful City."
Some Jews interpret this to mean that the Sanhedrin will be re-established. (Isaiah 1:26)
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4)
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via Solomon (1 Chronicles 22:8-10, 2 Chronicles 7:18)
The "spirit of the Lord" will be upon him, and he will have a "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2)
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25:8)
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did to Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)
The people of Israel will have direct access to the Torah through their minds and Torah study will become the study of the wisdom of the heart (Jeremiah 31:33)[5]
He will give you all the worthy desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

Even disregarding the questionable lineage, name me ONE thing that actually happened ever since - and specifically due to him.
Some things do start to happen, slowly but surely, but there's no way to attribute them to events of 2000 years ago.
Rather, it's the UPCOMING events that start resolving.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Dont you think this is just too silly way to look at it.

No, it's the only way to look at it. God murdered people on a massive scale by drowning them.

Please explain to me how that statement is silly.

We humans are everyday massmurdering so much vegetables and animals. I suppose that just another prove that we are made in Gods image.

After stating that my view is silly, you post this? Really?

I included in my judgement the claim that God is omnipotent has a lot to do with labelling the flood an evil act.

Edit: in fact just the idea of death and its actual creation is by that logic proof of collosal perversion..

Only if you attribute that system as a brainchild of intelligent design. There is indeed such an enormous amount of cruelty in nature, it really should make those who believe a benign being created all if it think again. As it is, some people think an perfectly Good being created it.

Silly you said? You haven't even scratched the surface.

 

[El_Machinae]

Even disregarding the questionable lineage, name me ONE thing that actually happened ever since - and specifically due to him.

How about all the miracles performed by his disciples and followers?

 

[civ2]

EM
WIKI

Maimonides (Rabbi Moshe ben Maimon) lamented the pains that Jews felt as a result of new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism, specifically Christianity and Islam. Referring to Jesus, he wrote:

"Even Jesus the Nazarene who imagined that he would be Messiah and was killed by the court, was already prophesied by Daniel. So that it was said, “And the members of the outlaws of your nation would be carried to make a (prophetic) vision stand. And they stumbled” (Daniel 11.14). Because, is there a greater stumbling-block than this one? So that all of the prophets spoke that the Messiah redeems Israel, and saves them, and gathers their banished ones, and strengthens their commandments. And this one caused (nations) to destroy Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant, and to humiliate them, and to exchange the Torah, and to make the majority of the world err to serve a divinity besides God."

Nonetheless, Maimonides continued,

"But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for his thoughts and ways are unlike ours. And all these things of Jesus the Nazarene, and of (Muhammad) the Ishmaelite who stood after him – there is no (purpose) but to straighten out the way for the King Messiah, and to restore all the world to serve God together. So that it is said, “Because then I will turn toward the nations (giving them) a clear lip, to call all of them in the name of God and to serve God (shoulder to shoulder as) one shoulder.” (Zephaniah 3:9). How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the anointed one and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the anointed king will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray." (Hilkhot Melakhim 11:10–12.)

Judaism's view of the Messiah

Judaism's view of the Messiah differs substantially from the Christian idea of the Messiah. In the Jewish account, the Messiah's task is to bring in the Messianic age, a one-time event, and a presumed messiah who is killed before completing the task (i.e., compelling all of Israel to walk in the way of Torah, repairing the breaches in observance, fighting the wars of God, building the Temple in its place, gathering in the dispersed exiles of Israel) is not the Messiah. Maimonides states, "But if he did not succeed in all this or was killed, he is definitely not the Moshiach promised in the Torah... and God only appointed him in order to test the masses."

Jews believe that the Messiah will fulfill the messianic prophecies of the Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel. According to Isaiah, the Messiah will be a paternal descendant of King David via King Solomon. He is expected to return the Jews to their homeland and rebuild the Temple, reign as King, and usher in an era of peace and understanding where "the knowledge of God" fills the earth, leading the nations to "end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel". Ezekiel states the Messiah will redeem the Jews.

Therefore, any Judaic view of Jesus per se is influenced by the fact that Jesus lived while the Second Temple was standing, and not while the Jews were exiled. He never reigned as King, and there was no subsequent era of peace or great knowledge. Jesus died without completing or even accomplishing part of any of the messianic tasks, instead promising a second coming. Rather than being redeemed, the Jews were subsequently exiled from Israel. These discrepancies were noted by Jewish scholars who were contemporaries of Jesus, as later pointed out by Nahmanides, who in 1263 observed that Jesus was rejected as the Messiah by the rabbis of his time.

Further, Judaism sees Christian claims that Jesus is the textual messiah of the Hebrew Bible as being based on mistranslations and Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish Messiah qualifications.

Maimonides writes: "The anointed king is destined to stand up and restore the Davidic Kingdom to its antiquity, to the first sovereignty. He will build the Temple in Jerusalem and gather the strayed ones of Israel together. All laws will return in his days as they were before: Sacrificial offerings are offered and the Sabbatical years and Jubilees are kept, according to all its precepts that are mentioned in the Torah. Whoever does not believe in him, or whoever does not wait for his coming, not only does he defy the other prophets, but also the Torah and Moses our teacher. For the Torah testifies about him, thus: "And the Lord Your God will return your returned ones and will show you mercy and will return and gather you... If your strayed one shall be at the edge of Heaven... And He shall bring you" etc.(Deuteronomy 30:3-5)." "These words that are explicitly stated in the Torah, encompass and include all the words spoken by all the prophets. In the section of Torah referring to Bala'am, too, it is stated, and there he prophesied about the two anointed ones: The first anointed one is David, who saved Israel from all their oppressors; and the last anointed one will stand up from among his descendants and saves Israel in the end. This is what he says (Numbers 24:17-18): "I see him but not now" - this is David; "I behold him but not near" - this is the anointed king. "A star has shot forth from Jacob" - this is David; "And a brand will rise up from Israel" - this is the anointed king. "And he will smash the edges of Moab" - This is David, as it states: "...And he struck Moab and measured them by rope" (II Samuel 8:2); "And he will uproot all Children of Seth" - this is the anointed king, of whom it is stated: "And his reign shall be from sea to sea" (Zechariah 9:10). "And Edom shall be possessed" - this is David, thus: "And Edom became David's as slaves etc." (II Samuel 8:6); "And Se'ir shall be possessed by its enemy" - this is the anointed king, thus: "And saviors shall go up Mount Zion to judge Mount Esau, and the Kingdom shall be the Lord's" (Obadiah 1:21)." "And by the Towns of Refuge it states: "And if the Lord your God will widen up your territory... you shall add on for you another three towns" etc. (Deuteronomy 19:8-9). Now this thing never happened; and the Holy One does not command in vain. But as for the words of the prophets, this matter needs no proof, as all their books are full with this issue." "Do not imagine that the anointed king must perform miracles and signs and create new things in the world or resurrect the dead and so on. The matter is not so: For Rabbi Akiva was a great scholar of the sages of the Mishnah, and he was the assistant-warrior of the king Bar Kokhba, and claimed that he was the anointed king. He and all the Sages of his generation deemed him the anointed king, until he was killed by sins; only since he was killed, they knew that he was not. The Sages asked him neither a miracle nor a sign..." "And if a king shall arise from among the House of David, studying Torah and indulging in commandments like his father David, according to the written and oral Torah, and he will impel all of Israel to follow it and to strengthen breaches in its observance, and will fight Hashem's [God's] wars, this one is to be treated as if he were the anointed one. If he succeeded and built a Holy Temple in its proper place and gathered the disperesed ones of Israel together, this is indeed the anointed one for certain, and he will mend the entire world to worship the Lord together, as it is stated: "For then I shall turn for the nations a clear tongue, to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship Him with one shoulder (Zephaniah 3:9)." "But if he did not succeed to this degree, or if he was killed, it becomes known that he is not this one of whom the Torah had promised us, and he is indeed like all proper and wholesome kings of the House of David who died. The Holy One, Blessed Be He, only set him up to try the public by him, thus: "Some of the wise men will stumble in clarifying these words, and in elucidating and interpreting when the time of the end will be, for it is not yet the designated time." (Daniel 11:35)."

they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws - like WE do now.

 

[Old Hippy]

The one thing about Judaism is that it's based on uninterrupting tradition, from parents to children and from teachers to students.
So, all those 3 million people told their children, who told their children ... who told me.
And surprisingly (not to me though) all those children's children got the same version with same implications.
A book about fairies (or any other type of revelation in other religions as far as I know) is speaking about active interaction of only few people, the "teachers", whereas the "students" had to rely on them entirely.
In Judaism, we ALL were "teachers" for our children - until these very days.

But... does not your argument there just prove that Hinduism is true after all, maybe more true? as there are more people passing on the truth

 

[civ2]

Graffito
I don't know the basics of Hinduism.
What I was referring to - was the EVENT of Sinai revelation, with 3 million people PRESENT there.
WIKI speaks of a BOOK, not an EVENT.
So if you compare eye-witnessing something vs reading it in a book (by whom actually?) - I'm sure you'd prefer the witnesses.
I mean, there are many books with nice stories (someone already mentioned Homer here, btw, archaeologists DID find some interesting stuff about Troy, though of course NOT mythical) - but none of them has a self-reference that mentions millions (or actually more than just dozens) of people as witnesses.
Taking the same Troy as example - are there ANY descendants of those times that have a TRADITION that their ancestors were part of the action?
NO!!!
While Jews constantly annually-to-daily remind themselves and their children of such events like Exodus and the like.
I really don't understand how everybody is so not understanding the idea of uninterrupted TRADITION - is it stubbornness or what???

 

[Old Hippy]

While Jews constantly annually-to-daily remind themselves and their children of such events like Exodus and the like.
I really don't understand how everybody is so not understanding the idea of uninterrupted TRADITION - is it stubbornness or what???

that was kind of my point.... I am not saying you are wrong , only that the arguement used ... is the same one that supports the Hindu beliefs, and is the same one I use to suport my Budhist understanding

 

[Defiant47]

Defiant
Why do you believe constitution isn't a fake?

Your analogy is not applicable. It doesn't matter if the constitution is a fake if we live by it.

It does matter if your Bible is a fake if the consequences of worshiping God or not are zero.

Cause you have people who are descendants of those that signed it.
For all those centuries it was constantly seen by newer and newer generations, while in the presence of the older ones.
Thus preventing FAKING of it.

That does not lend legitimacy to the original document.

You also put way too much trust in the hands of primitive, superstitious, humans.

Also, about Divine knowledge.
You forget that the original generation actually EXPERIENCED G-d, and could tell this to their children.

How did they know that the experienced God, and not something else? Are they all-knowing and can tell what's God and what isn't? Are they capable of telling what lightning strikes are from God and what lightning strikes are from nature?

How do you know that they experienced God? Do you possess superhuman divine knowledge and can tell who experienced God and who didn't experience God, just by reading a few words about them?

Actually, they were commanded to do so!
And the story of Exodus is also repeated annually at Passover, with the entire family.
So each generation had continuously being reminded of the past events many times.
I'd say, your problem is typical - you don't WANT to believe what I say, so you just "don't hear me right"...
Whatever...

The continuation of a story is not proof of the story's truth.

The entire basis of your belief is something that is demonstrably false.

 

[Leoreth]

Ohhh, guys...
I still can't and probably won't digest the notion that people here hate being linked-to instead of quote-fed...
But I so think it's a wrong attitude...
Whatever...

Well it's the forum equivalent of having an interesting discussion with a couple of people, but instead of responding to their arguments, you slam some books in front of them and say "come back when you've finished them". It disrupts the discussion, and frankly, it's a little patronising to ask people to read up something until you want to continue talking to them.