Is there any point in keeping NATO around?

[Yeekim]

Otherwise I think nobody in his right mind would suggest that Putin may declare random Swedes as Russians and send army to protect them from something. Suggesting this sounds to me like paranoia, no?

That is far-fetched, I agree.

Our heart is broken, but we hope there is a chance to bring back good old days and again live together in peace.

I suddenly remembered how me and friends used to cheer Russian teams in big international cups (football, hockey...), them often being the closest we had to "home team". Wasn't so long ago, less than 15 years...

Why did the bloody Chekists have to return to power?

 

[red_elk]

Why did the bloody Chekists have to return to power?

Our problem is that we often swing from one extreme to another.
Chekists have their obvious downsides, but I remember Gorbachev and Yeltsin times good enough to not feel nostalgia for them. This may be not obvious from outside of Russia, but inside it Putin's popularity has real reasons. And this is not just "resurgence of nationalism" or stuff like that. Hope we'll eventually find right balance between Yeltsin's anarchy and sliding into autocracy.

 

[Yeekim]

Yeltsin times good enough to not feel nostalgia for them.

No wonder. Yeltsin was a corrupt, bumbling drunk who probably discredited democracy in Russia for generations. His only saving grace, not being an aggressive imperialist, is clearly not enough to be not loathed anywhere but near abroad...

This may be not obvious from outside of Russia, but inside it Putin's popularity has real reasons.

One could say he got lucky with high oil prices... so far, at least.

Hope we'll eventually find right balance between Yeltsin's anarchy and sliding into autocracy.

Here's to hoping...

 

[Agent327]

Our problem is that we often swing from one extreme to another.
Chekists have their obvious downsides, but I remember Gorbachev and Yeltsin times good enough to not feel nostalgia for them. This may be not obvious from outside of Russia, but inside it Putin's popularity has real reasons. And this is not just "resurgence of nationalism" or stuff like that. Hope we'll eventually find right balance between Yeltsin's anarchy and sliding into autocracy.

If you're relying on Putin to prevent sliding into autocracy I wouldn't get my hopes up. As he told one viewer during one of his interview sessions when asked what will happen when Putin is gone: "That day you will not live to see!"

For once, I believe he was not lying.

Also, going from extreme to extreme is not one of Russia's major problems. The economy is. An economy that primarily relies on oil exports and an endemic corruption. These are not problems that will be solved by an adventurous foreign policy, nor are these problems I would expect a Putin to solve.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Things will look bleak for Russia when oil is no longer a main commodity, ie in a few centuries.

Meanwhile, things look good for Germany, since it has next to zero natural resources, and sets favorable trade laws through uber-corruption. May survive for a few 5-year periods

 

[red_elk]

^Things will look bleak for Russia when oil is no longer a main commodity, ie in a few centuries.

This is both good and bad. Russia has vast amount of natural resources, which are not limited to fossil fuels. Because of that, market mechanisms favor exploitation of natural resources, in our case it is more profitable than other industry. As a result, we don't have diversified enough economy, there are only a few sectors which are competitive in the world and most of them are state regulated (mainly, defense and airspace, but also branches of machine industry, energy and IT)

But fuel is still main part of Russian exports and it makes up about 10% of Russian GDP.
By the way, main export partner of Russia is... Netherlands

Edit: Looks like I slided to off-topic, sorry.

 

[warpus]

A diversified Russian economy and more trade ties with the west should eventually help bring these two "foes" closer together. But I don't think they're going to start calling eachother anytime soon, for now there's going to be sulking and a bit more of a drift, for the next couple years at least, if not longer.

 

[Agent327]

^Things will look bleak for Russia when oil is no longer a main commodity, ie in a few centuries.

Meanwhile, things look good for Germany, since it has next to zero natural resources, and sets favorable trade laws through uber-corruption. May survive for a few 5-year periods

Unlike Greece. Thanks for another brilliant analysis (I assume you know that Greek word).

 

[Kyriakos]

Unlike Greece. Thanks for another brilliant analysis (I assume you know that Greek word).

Well, yeah, and if you had even epidermic (another greek word ) knowledge of this you would know that this country has loads of natural resources, so /failed even in whataboutism.

 

[FriendlyFire]

this country has loads of natural resources, so /failed even in whataboutism.

........ Greece has clay and coal and marble
I also learnt Greece once had very fertile lands, then Greece destroyed this, and everywhere is infertile now.

Greece has many mineral deposits. These are marble, clay, nickel, coal, bauxite, ore, and chromate. The country only has one major petroleum deposit in the Aegean Sea near Thasos Some were even exported to other countries.

By 650 BC much of the forest was cut down for shipbuilding and the creation of coal for the metalworkings. This might appear as a blessing to the farmers as they could have more farming land. However this was disastrous as the rain fell in the winter along the mountainsides it washed away any fertile soil that may have been there. The tree roots were not there to hold the fertile soil. This resulted in the land becoming even more infertile. The statesman Solon tried to solve the problem by asking his citizens to plant olive trees. The olive trees were meant to hold the fertile soil, however this did not happen because the olive tree roots spread into the deeper soil for moisture leaving the surface bare to be washed away. The situation was so bad that in Athens the statesmen decided to import grains from Egypt to feed its population. This explains why Greece has so many olive trees today. These trees have become conditioned to the limited amount of moisture and grow with minimal watering.

 

[Ironsided]

Is there any point in keeping NATO around?

Objectivly no.

 

[Agent327]

Oh, now I'm convinced.

Well, yeah, and if you had even epidermic (another greek word ) knowledge of this you would know that this country has loads of natural resources, so /failed even in whataboutism.

Unlike your own quip which succeeded in whataboutism. (But not in analysis, as that presumes knowledge of relevant facts.)

 

[Ironsided]

Should probably add that keeping NATO around is most likely causing more injustice and suffering to the collective population on earth than any other terror organisation.

 

[Agent327]

Ah, an argument. Now I'm totally convinced.

Seriously, I think (for instance) Latvia would disagree with you.

 

[Ironsided]

Us vs them

no

we

 

[Agent327]

Well, that would be the Kremlin viewpoint. But then, Russia isn't a member of NATO.

 

[Ironsided]

No that's my (very swedish) and about 98% of the population on earths view.

I read somewhere 2% are extermists.

 

[Flying Pig]

Unfortunately, nobody explained it to the 2%, who make life nasty, brutish and short for many of the 98%. We make war that we might live in peace, and all that.

 

[Ironsided]

If we made war to live in peace wars would be very short indeed.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think that Nato will at some time be replaced with some other alliance featuring nuclear powers too. It would make more sense by now to be a european alliance, and actually that one might be able to keep the more invasion-happy nations in line (particularly England, but afaik France is quite involved in its x-colonies' wars/issues).

At any rate if that new alliance has nukes it won't go to war with other nuclear powers, which means it won't have enemies that can actually threaten it in the context of a war. Which is pretty much all that America-led Nato was good for in the years after ww2.

As for Latvia-Estonia, meh, sell them to Russia (Finland too).