IS

[kramerfan86]

And you don't find that confusing? What do the Kurds have that enables them to transcend the religious differences that divide the Arabs?

Supra-tribalism, maybe? Or maybe religion isn't as important to them?

Eh not really that odd to me, Kurds have a history of being picked on by their neighbors which has a bit of a unifying effect I am sure. Plus they have a bit more of a track record with being secular.

 

[Borachio]

Strange that the Arabs didn't also experience the unifying effect too, though, isn't it?

 

[Wolfbeckett]

Islamic State 'destroys ancient Iraq statues in Mosul'

Besides their crimes against humanity, I take great offense and issue when precious historical artifacts, regardless of their meaning and symbolism, are summarily destroyed. I would be just as furious if the someone destroyed the Quba Mosque in Medina or St. Peter's Cathedral in Rome. Further proof that they are not really looking to nation build but instigate the rest of the world.

This behavior is completely unacceptable and will further alienate them from the global community of nations and there is not an ounce of legitimacy to their cause, regardless of the causes that brought them to where they are today.

Perhaps they are jealous that the crisis in the Ukraine gets more attention? We will never know that.

This isn't evidence that they aren't looking to nation build. On the contrary, this is evidence that they ARE nation building, they are just building a specific type of nation. They are building a nation built on extremely strict and extremely literal interpretations of the Quran, and part of that is that they perceive themselves as being ordered to destroy idols, and ISIS is pretty infamous at this point for casting a WIDE net on what is considered apostasy or idolatry, even destroying things that are part of the Muslim faith because they don't jibe with their exact precise ideas of what Islam is.

For anyone who hasn't seen it, here's a really good article I ran across today about the fundamental goals and beliefs of ISIS:

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

[kramerfan86]

Strange that the Arabs didn't also experience the unifying effect too, though, isn't it?

I dont think the Arabs have quite undergone as horrifying of potentially unifying events like getting gassed by Saddam Hussein for instance.

 

[Borachio]

It is a good article. If a little long.

<snip>
It&#8217;s hard to overstate how hamstrung the Islamic State will be by its radicalism. The modern international system, born of the 1648 Peace of Westphalia, relies on each state&#8217;s willingness to recognize borders, however grudgingly. For the Islamic State, that recognition is ideological suicide.
<snip>
Properly contained, the Islamic State is likely to be its own undoing. No country is its ally, and its ideology ensures that this will remain the case. The land it controls, while expansive, is mostly uninhabited and poor. As it stagnates or slowly shrinks, its claim that it is the engine of God&#8217;s will and the agent of apocalypse will weaken, and fewer believers will arrive. And as more reports of misery within it leak out, radical Islamist movements elsewhere will be discredited: No one has tried harder to implement strict Sharia by violence. This is what it looks like.
<snip>
That the Islamic State holds the imminent fulfillment of prophecy as a matter of dogma at least tells us the mettle of our opponent. It is ready to cheer its own near-obliteration, and to remain confident, even when surrounded, that it will receive divine succor if it stays true to the Prophetic model. Ideological tools may convince some potential converts that the group&#8217;s message is false, and military tools can limit its horrors. But for an organization as impervious to persuasion as the Islamic State, few measures short of these will matter, and the war may be a long one, even if it doesn&#8217;t last until the end of time.

 

[Agent327]

Strange that the Arabs didn't also experience the unifying effect too, though, isn't it?

Seeing as 'the Arabs' actually consists of many different nations, not really, no. (There was a temporary unifying effect in the 7th century, I believe.)

 

[NovaKart]

Most Kurds are Sunni so the religious split is not really relevant in Iraqi Kurdistan.

 

[Oruc]

So these pictures are of construction crews, cement trucks, or what? Can you post the link and pictures? Because right now it just seems like you're telling me to take your word for it, and hearsay won't cut it.

IS completely lost all credibility when they published on their Website (which i refuse to link on principle, so you go ahead and google it) that Islam is not religion of peace but a religion of the sword.

I know deep in my heart that is not what God intends for his children.

I was linked to website before christmas, I just saved the pictures because I thought they were interesting.

Spoiler :

Because right now it just seems like you're telling me to take your word for it, and hearsay won't cut it.

But that's all you were offering in the first place?

 

[Commodore]

Strange that the Arabs didn't also experience the unifying effect too, though, isn't it?

Maybe that's because the Arabs haven't really been "picked on" by all their neighbors like the Kurds have.

 

[NovaKart]

There was a civil war between the two major Kurdish parties in Iraq in the 1990s. They haven't really been under the direct control of Saddam since the 1990s unlike the rest of the country. I think you could say they've already been through the nation building process and while Kurdistan is not an independent nation it's functioning mostly independently.

 

[Domen]

Seeing as 'the Arabs' actually consists of many different nations, not really, no. (There was a temporary unifying effect in the 7th century, I believe.)

It was the other way around.

In the early 7th century the Arabs lived only in the Arabian Peninsula. Since the time of Muhammad, they started to expand and migrate into North Africa, the Middle East and the Mediterranean world, establishing the Kaliphate ruled by the Umayyad dynasty. Since the demise of said dynasty, they gradually fragmented politically into many quarrelling entities.

I'm not familiar with early Kurdish history but unlike Arabic their language is Indo-European, not Semitic.

 

[Tigranes]

Iraq's army and Shi'ite militia have launched a long-awaited offensive against Islamic State in Salahuddin province, a stronghold of the radical Islamist fighters north of Baghdad, Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi said on Sunday.

The ultra-radical fighters control several strongholds in the mainly Sunni Muslim province of Salahuddin, including Tikrit, hometown of executed former president Saddam Hussein.

They also hold other towns on the Tigris river, north of the government-held city of Samarra which Abadi visited on Sunday.

"The prime minister and armed forces chief ... announce the start of the security campaign to liberate Salahuddin," a statement issued by Abadi's office said as he met military leaders in the province, where thousands of troops and militia have gathered for battle.

In comments broadcast on Iraqi television, Abadi said the Islamist militants would be pushed out of all of Salahuddin and offered their supporters a final opportunity to hand themselves in. "I call upon all those who have been deluded and made mistakes in past to lay down arms today," he said.

"This is their last chance. If they insist on staying on their wrong path they will receive the fair punishment they deserve because they ... stood with terrorism."

Thousands of troops and fighters from Shi'ite militias known as Hashid Shaabi (Popular Mobilization) have been mobilized for the campaign against Islamic State in Salahuddin.

On Saturday residents reported heavy clashes around Samarra after suicide bombers blew themselves up near to security forces in attacks which may have aimed at disrupting the army and militia preparations for the campaign.

Abadi's announcement follows several failed attempts to drive the militants out of Tikrit since they swept towards Baghdad last June, adding large parts of north and west Iraq to the swathes of neighboring Syria already under their control.

Months of U.S.-led air strikes, backed up by the Shi'ite militias, Kurdish peshmerga fighters and Iraqi soldiers have contained Islamic State and pushed them back from around Baghdad, the Kurdish north, and the eastern province of Diyala.

But they have held most of their strongholds in Salahuddin and taken new territory in the western province of Anbar. Fighting around al-Baghdadi in Anbar has highlighted the challenge of defeating Islamic State fighters.

A senior U.S. officer said last week 800 Iraqi forces were participating in the battle and appeared set to drive the militants back. His optimistic comments echoed those of Iraq's defense minister.

But nearly two weeks after launching the operation to retake what are little more than a handful of villages on the Euphrates river, five miles from a major military base, Baghdad has yet to declare victory.

Abadi also visited Samarra's restored Shi'ite Askari shrine, which was blown up in a 2006 attack which triggered the worst period of Iraq's sectarian bloodshed, Iraqi television said.

 

[kramerfan86]

Using Shiite militias to retake Sunni territories is going to end very very ugly.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It was the other way around.

In the early 7th century the Arabs lived only in the Arabian Peninsula. Since the time of Muhammad, they started to expand and migrate into North Africa, the Middle East and the Mediterranean world, establishing the Kaliphate ruled by the Umayyad dynasty. Since the demise of said dynasty, they gradually fragmented politically into many quarrelling entities.

I'm not familiar with early Kurdish history but unlike Arabic their language is Indo-European, not Semitic.

Most "Arabs" are not descended from the inhabitants of the pre-7th century Arabian Peninsula, or at least not predominantly. Many disparate peoples were assimilated into the Arab culture, as the Islamic governments strongly encouraged the adoption of their language. I believe that Iraqi Arabs are genetically more similar to the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians than to the Arabs of the peninsula. North African Arabs are mostly Berbers who changed languages.

 

[r16]

In any area of conflict I would default to giving to the Kurds since they have proven themselves more competent than the other sections of Iraq.

that competency arises solely from the fact that while the Marsh Arabs were allowed to be butchered after 1991 while the Kurds were protected and their infrastructure was developed , naturally by Turkish money and stuff , so that they could be "cooler" . After the US invasion they were carefully nurtured as well , before becoming to eager and act on their own . As you might have well noticed the ethnic cleansing of the area needed ISIL , right ? Saddam's outfits performed even better when there was a lack of US Airpower , good enough to thrash the Kurds as well .

 

[Domen]

Most "Arabs" are not descended from the inhabitants of the pre-7th century Arabian Peninsula, or at least not predominantly. Many disparate peoples were assimilated into the Arab culture,

So what, isn't this the case with great majority of expansions and migrations in history ???

I believe that Iraqi Arabs are genetically more similar to the Aramaic-speaking Assyrians than to the Arabs of the peninsula. North African Arabs are mostly Berbers who changed languages.

Even if this is the case (do you have actual hard data? - though as I wrote above, this indeed seems to be the case with majority of migrations in history, so your claim is not implausible, even though you cite no evidence), then still Berber and Assyrian cultures were largely erased and replaced by Arab cultures.

Bur remnants of cultural Assyrians and Berbers still exist. I visited a Berber settlement when I was in Tunisia several years ago.

Assyrians were victims of Muslim genocides in the past, just like now ISIS is exterminating Syrian Christians and destroying Ancient monuments.

 

[MacAttack]

I was linked to website before christmas, I just saved the pictures because I thought they were interesting.

Spoiler :

But that's all you were offering in the first place?

That is not what I meant. Not just one dude clearing a bit of marsh, or a fireman cleaning his tools, or some electrician trying to restore power to some building.
I mean real public works projects like this one, creating jobs, furthering the local economy

Spoiler :

 

[Oruc]

That is not what I meant. Not just one dude clearing a bit of marsh, or a fireman cleaning his tools, or some electrician trying to restore power to some building.
I mean real public works projects like this one, creating jobs, furthering the local economy

Spoiler :

You do realise they're fighting a life and death struggle?

 

[MacAttack]

yes I do realize that they are too busy ending local peoples lives and creating death and destruction in their struggle for domination. This is not about Assad being a dictator anymore its about power domination and religion driven oppression. They want their turn to oppress and exercise power. That is not what government and nationbuilding is about. Worry more about how to further the economy and less about what people are wearing.

 

[Commodore]

Using Shiite militias to retake Sunni territories is going to end very very ugly.

Who else are you going to use though? I worked very closely with the Iraqi Army when I was over there and I can tell you they care a lot more about their tribe and which sect of Islam they follow more than they care about their military duty to their nation. If they send Sunni troops in, there is a good chance they may end up either refusing to fight or, worst case scenario, defect to ISIS. No, the only locals you can trust to actually stand and fight against ISIS are the Kurds and Shia militias.